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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:06 pm 
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akaeve wrote:
:wavingyellow: just hoping you are well


Thank you for asking. Sorry my response isn't a happy one. I'm just seriously bummed. Just buried my other cat only a couple months ago. really tired of this. but I love having cats.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:27 pm 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
I've had better days. Took my kitty to the vet. found out he has cancer. probably weeks to months, unlikely to be longer, though right now he seems perfectly healthy other than the little 'nut' under his jaw that is already getting in the way of his eating properly a little bit.

not sure what can be done, but probably not a whole lot... cat torture isn't my style. I've been down this road before. It's not a nice way to go, but sadly, if you have older cats, it's not an uncommon way.

Blue


Sorry to hear this. I know I would be a total wreck if it was my cat. You know my e-mail if you need a shoulder.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:21 am 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
:wavingyellow: just hoping you are well


Thank you for asking. Sorry my response isn't a happy one. I'm just seriously bummed. Just buried my other cat only a couple months ago. really tired of this. but I love having cats.

Oh Blue I am so sorry, that is why I love my visiting kitts, I couldn't really go thro' the pain of losing a fur-baby again.

Just chin up girl they know you loved them dearly.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:36 pm 
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I'm sorry about your cat. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:21 pm 
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Thank you guys so much for your kind words. It means a great deal!

Blue

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:55 pm 
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Have any of you been involved with Second Life? I finally got around to creating an account... If you're interested, I'm deepbluejoy there too.

Blue

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:12 pm 
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What is it?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:18 pm 
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DNAchemLia wrote:
What is it?

I googled....not my cup of tea

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:53 pm 
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it's a lot of different things... it's NOT a game... it's just an environment where people can interact... you can create an avatar of yourself... mine has blue hair (big surprise, right?)... other than that, it's as 'me' as I can make it, though, more of a younger model! Sadly, though I've tried to make it 'me'-ish it really doesn't look like me, but that would require buying an avatar, and I'm not sure I'm that invested in this...

Mostly, I just roam around, listen to the ocean and enjoy the artificial 'outdoors'. The place is so huge that you can never see it all... but mostly i just 'hike' around this one particular 'island' 'SIM' called 'whimsy'. and it's relaxing. It's easy to chat with people - and that's mostly why I was sharing it with folk here. I'm deepbluejoy there also, so if you decide to give it a try, look me up.

Yes, there are 'dark' sides... 'adult' worlds where you can have sim sex, but frankly, it's nothing I've seen at all b/c I haven't gone looking for it. It's NOT in your face. Mostly I hang out in 'G' or 'M' (moderate) areas. There are also areas designated 'A' that are marked adult for reasons other than sex... For example, there's a PTSD sim... haven't done it, but I explored it b/c of my work... I won't be exploring any sex oriented content. A lot of the worlds I go to have automatic settings that if you are nude or immodest you're automatically booted... I've yet to meet anything really shocking, but then I'm not that easily shocked. So far, I haven't really seem much that wouldn't be see-able in a Halloween party.

Anyway, if anyone is interested...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:20 am 
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:hug2col: I'm sorry, Blue. Never easy.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:08 pm 
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Hi wanted to say thank you for the karma, since retiring things been strange not normal. B I think is moving to different level of Parkinson's. He now thinks I am talking about him (ok here) but other things. Mater thinks like that and she has dementia we know Parkinson's is a form of dementia so I think he is now going same way. Sorry to talk like this but he is beginning yo think I talk to men on the net. So trying to not be on too long.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:46 am 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
marvelous


Hetty: It's not everyone who can wear dead mammals around their necks with zero irony!!

actually I have my grans..........I always mean to give them to the local drama club.

Spoiler:
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That is utterly awesome! You should never give them away.

I know I keep saying that it would be cruel , but they do need a good home and well drama clubs might like. I know that no charity shop will take.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:17 am 
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akaeve wrote:
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
marvelous


Hetty: It's not everyone who can wear dead mammals around their necks with zero irony!!

actually I have my grans..........I always mean to give them to the local drama club.

Spoiler:
Image


That is utterly awesome! You should never give them away.

I know I keep saying that it would be cruel , but they do need a good home and well drama clubs might like. I know that no charity shop will take.


You know best. When the time comes, they'll definitely add 'drama' to the drama club! When you're ready, of course.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:19 am 
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saw your post on Fish's board but thought put here too for discussion

I have a lot of Mark's films, and yes Ted Bundy scary, as was Casualties Mark really played Tommy Nance well, could see a lot of Gibbs in it....and then there was his other scary one "And never let her go" where it was again based real true story of Anne Marie Fahey and Thomas Joseph Capano who killed her Capano Never let her go

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:16 pm 
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akaeve wrote:
saw your post on Fish's board but thought put here too for discussion

I have a lot of Mark's films, and yes Ted Bundy scary, as was Casualties Mark really played Tommy Nance well, could see a lot of Gibbs in it....and then there was his other scary one "And never let her go" where it was again based real true story of Anne Marie Fahey and Thomas Joseph Capano who killed her Capano Never let her go


I think Mark was often underrated when he was younger... he is capable of a great deal more range than he was given credit for then. Fortunately, NCIS gives him a chance to do a little of everything.

Thanks for the references.

Blue

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:46 pm 
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And we must not forget him in Sweet Bird of Youth with Liz Taylor, get a bit of nudity there.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:47 pm 
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akaeve wrote:
And we must not forget him in Sweet Bird of Youth with Liz Taylor, get a bit of nudity there.


That is quite a combination!!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:59 pm 
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:flirtysmile: Bless him for not being shy :flirtysmile: :evillaugh: and, apparently, not reading contracts too closely when he was younger :rofl: :lol2: :rofl:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:41 pm 
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Well, family, I just thought about it, and realized that in 4 days, I'll have been here a whole year!!
So I just want to say thanks for being part of my cyber family and sharing my ups and downs and just being there.

Hugs to all!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Happy New Year and Happy Almost Nfanniversary ;D :hug2col:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:05 pm 
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VERY HAPPY NEWS!!!

Especially for the new year! I realize that in all the craziness that is my life, I didn't tell anyone... The biopsy was negative. For the biopsy, the vet removed all of the growth, so it's gone too! While I still have some very elderly cats and several have had some respiratory issues this winter... I still have all my cats!

Max doesn't have cancer!

PhoenixRising wrote:
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
I've had better days. Took my kitty to the vet. found out he has cancer. probably weeks to months, unlikely to be longer, though right now he seems perfectly healthy other than the little 'nut' under his jaw that is already getting in the way of his eating properly a little bit.

not sure what can be done, but probably not a whole lot... cat torture isn't my style. I've been down this road before. It's not a nice way to go, but sadly, if you have older cats, it's not an uncommon way.

Blue


Sorry to hear this. I know I would be a total wreck if it was my cat. You know my e-mail if you need a shoulder.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:53 pm 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
Max doesn't have cancer!


:yesyes:

I am so happy to hear this! That's fantastic news.

Happy one year anniversary. I'm glad we met.

I'm hoping this year your muse will kick into high gear so I can return the favors. ;D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:36 pm 
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YAY! That's awesome news!! So happy for you and your furry baby! :nice:

:hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:02 am 
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:kisscheek: so glad furbaby ok

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:34 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:07 am 
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Could use some of those on fanfic, too, but at least one isn't expected to pay to read that, I guess!

(Except when someone files the numbers off and sells it as 'original' fiction, of course.)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:01 am 
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:wavingyellow: hi

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:30 am 
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flootzavut wrote:
Could use some of those on fanfic, too, but at least one isn't expected to pay to read that, I guess!

(Except when someone files the numbers off and sells it as 'original' fiction, of course.)


Yeah, I don't think we know quite how often that's happening, especially these days... of course, before there was copyright, people freely stole ideas and created derivations... but that's a whole different discussion. Yeah, I wish I had these for my reviews too!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:19 am 
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I sometimes feel that fanfic that can be remarketed that easily probably wasn't very good fanfic. I mean, half the point of fanfic is that we take recognisable characters and put them in new situations (or occasionally, take a recognisable milieu and fill it with new characters), and if those characters can be so easily divorced from their origins, how good was the characterisation in the first instance?

And at the other end of the scale, I think FSOG benefited enormously, let's be real, from the thousands reading it and casting Christian Grey as either their imaginary version of Edward Cullen or as Robert Pattinson (and themselves as Ana Steele). Or at least, with prose that dreary and seriously unsexy sex, that's the best explanation I've been able to come up with. If it had been published without the Twilight hype surrounding it, I can't see how it would ever have got past the slush pile.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:41 am 
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flootzavut wrote:
I sometimes feel that fanfic that can be remarketed that easily probably wasn't very good fanfic. I mean, half the point of fanfic is that we take recognisable characters and put them in new situations (or occasionally, take a recognisable milieu and fill it with new characters), and if those characters can be so easily divorced from their origins, how good was the characterisation in the first instance?

And at the other end of the scale, I think FSOG benefited enormously, let's be real, from the thousands reading it and casting Christian Grey as either their imaginary version of Edward Cullen or as Robert Pattinson (and themselves as Ana Steele). Or at least, with prose that dreary and seriously unsexy sex, that's the best explanation I've been able to come up with. If it had been published without the Twilight hype surrounding it, I can't see how it would ever have got past the slush pile.


Well, that makes sense, as much as Twilight selling makes sense. I think both vanilla 'badness' stories gave people permission to lust and 'desire' and be 'naughty' without being ANY of those things... it was safe 'dangerousness'.

Sad that so many women are afraid of their sexuality and sensuality so much that they need what is the moral equivalent of a VERY BAD Mills and Boon/Harlequin (old style, passive female not responsible for their sex/lust/'bad thoughts') who gets the 'handsome hot guy' (with much commandery-ness but zero personality) and they have zero communication or relationship.

Yup, it all, sadly, makes total sense... it's part of the whole Twilight bullshit.

In a sane world, Buffy would have been the BILLION dollar seller and Twilight/FSOG would have been consigned to the slag pile in hell. And hell would have spit them out b/c they're boring and MIND VACANT.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:36 pm 
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Bahaha. I love those warnings. (But I sometimes enjoy unrelatable protagonists.)

flootzavut wrote:
I sometimes feel that fanfic that can be remarketed that easily probably wasn't very good fanfic. I mean, half the point of fanfic is that we take recognisable characters and put them in new situations (or occasionally, take a recognisable milieu and fill it with new characters), and if those characters can be so easily divorced from their origins, how good was the characterisation in the first instance?

I don't exactly think this is a fair statement.

I've taken at least one story originally meant as "fanfic" and changed it just enough that it fits outside of fanfic as an original short story. I've even done that in reverse. (I've also heard of other people doing similar things.)

Guess that raises the old question on the definition of what "good fanfic" is. (Not simply "good writing" but what's good and "fits" with the spirit of what fanfic is.) Some like to stay very close to canon. Some don't. Some are in the middle. Oh there's a whole discussion there! :hyper:

HOWEVER, one thing that makes me uncomfortable is "re-working" something into original fiction after it's already been published online as fanfiction. Because... technically... that piece is published, and doing anything else with it is re-publishing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:04 pm 
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I'm so tired today that my attempt to explain myself got so long and convoluted even I couldn't follow it :rofl: but in the meantime, in lieu of an attempt to defend my position, I'll point out I did say "probably" not "definitely", and that I'm 100% open to being proven wrong, but I'd need to be convinced.

Like I say, very willing to be proven wrong, but I've seen an awful lot of evidence that it doesn't work (for me, anyhow - clearly there are millions of FSOG readers alone who'd disagree with me! so it's just my opinion), and (to my knowledge) no examples of it working (for me).

And like I say, beyond that, I failed to write a post even I understood, so I'm cut and pasting it elsewhere till such a time as I can attempt to make it make sense :P ;D sorry. Tired would be a massive understatement - if I had that crazy-eyed smilie (or a crazy-eyed Tony) to hand, that would about say it.

Edited to add: I do think it depends on the story. I know I've read and enjoyed some fanfic where I've had little to no knowledge of the source material, but even the really good stuff, I've felt like I would've enjoyed it more had I had that knowledge. And similarly, I tend to find stories specifically targeted for the fandom blind, where all the Ts are crossed and the Is are dotted, is often annoying to read as a fan. (I realise not everyone feels that way, which is fine, but as a reader I personally prefer to read stuff which assumes I watch the show and know the characters. Personal taste thing :))

And lastly, when I do read outside my familiar fandoms, it's usually a shorter story, which as a format is something where the lack of knowledge of a fandom blind person is often similar to the questions left unanswered in a non-fanfic short story. I can think of some really good stories that I loved that, IMO, if they were novel length, I would have got to the point where I would've needed to go and watch the show/read the books, because I'd get to the point where the stuff I was missing would've started to bug me. Again, personal preference.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:06 pm 
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K9Lasko wrote:
Bahaha. I love those warnings. (But I sometimes enjoy unrelatable protagonists.)


Every now and again that crazy antagonist or antihero is interesting.

flootzavut wrote:
I sometimes feel that fanfic that can be remarketed that easily probably wasn't very good fanfic. I mean, half the point of fanfic is that we take recognisable characters and put them in new situations (or occasionally, take a recognisable milieu and fill it with new characters), and if those characters can be so easily divorced from their origins, how good was the characterisation in the first instance?


K9Lasko wrote:
I don't exactly think this is a fair statement.


I agree, but I also know what Flootz means, (I think...) b/c if you've created very specific people, it's difficult to turn them into someone else... That said, there are some stories that could possibly be reworked 'enough' -- but I am facing this myself.

I am writing a book about some minor (original) characters from one of my fanfics, and I find I'm having to completely rewrite the small parts where the canon characters from that fanon appear b/c otherwise, they'd be recognizable to anyone who knew those characters well... physical descriptions would have had to be changed as well as their dialogue and talents... even specific college degrees... and no, I do not cut and paste dialogue tics/catch phrases from fandoms (at least not very often).

The point is that if you've gotten into the head of someone like Spencer Reid or Buffy Summers, you really can't make them be someone else. (I chose to write the canon characters out all together. I actually don't use ANY of my original story, just the characters I created and some of the plot, also created by me.) Basically, I lifted the people and events and put them into my own unique universe.

K9Lasko wrote:
I've taken at least one story originally meant as "fanfic" and changed it just enough that it fits outside of fanfic as an original short story. I've even done that in reverse. (I've also heard of other people doing similar things.)


I just read a story by a friend that she's e published. It's quite good, but also utterly recognizable as a story about a particular couple (b/c I recognize the physical characteristics and ways of speaking). I suspect anyone who knew the fandom would wonder. Anyone who knows she writes the fandom will KNOW that this is a 'remove serial numbers' job. Someone running plagiarism software might recognize the story if it's still online.

K9Lasko wrote:
Guess that raises the old question on the definition of what "good fanfic" is. (Not simply "good writing" but what's good and "fits" with the spirit of what fanfic is.) Some like to stay very close to canon. Some don't. Some are in the middle. Oh there's a whole discussion there! :hyper:


Yes it is. Feel free to have it! Derail at will.

I think if you're very true to the characters, you're going to run into trouble even if your story is completely AU. If you're AU, people who don't know the fandom probably won't 'get' it, but people who do will definitely go 'hmmm'.

K9Lasko wrote:
HOWEVER, one thing that makes me uncomfortable is "re-working" something into original fiction after it's already been published online as fanfiction. Because... technically... that piece is published, and doing anything else with it is re-publishing.


Yeah, it's basically self plagiarism. I have no issues with doing what I"m doing... grabbing your own characters and creating a universe for them, but if you take canon folk and change the names... Well, that kind of is problematic for me.

It's very tempting though. I have one story I wrote that is about a minor character in the fandom and I would LOVE to rework that into a book b/c the entire tale is quite AU, quite original and develops the character far past canon. That said, I believe I've captured enough of who that character is that ANYONE reading that story who'd ever seen my fandom would know it was her unless I turned her into a totally different character... and the story is as much about character as it is about plot...

Most of my work is about character... and interaction... and so even when the setting is completely separate from canon, it's very hard to see how those characters could be reworked into 'original' fiction and stay the characters I developed.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:20 pm 
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I think Blue probably said a lot of what I tried and failed to say in my abandoned post!

And again, I'm open to being convinced... but at the same time, it's hard for me to see how a story that really got inside a familiar character wouldn't still be recognisable to me if that character had a minor facelift to disguise them...

If the characterisation and storytelling is (are? I have seriously forgotten how to English...) vivid, it might work as a story, and it might be of interest to people who don't know the character, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't make someone who did know the character think "Hmmm, this feels weirdly familiar."

If they had a major facelift/character overhaul, then I'd suggest it probably doesn't fit into the category of fanfic that can be easily remarketed ;)

But I really am knackered and kinda braindead so imma shurrup now :blush:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:42 pm 
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I'm pretty sure someone on this site pointed me to this course, so I want to say thank you. If you aren't the person who directed me to the course and you didn't catch the first announcement... If you want to improve your writing, you should do this course...

(It's free, of course)

It's called Start Writing Fiction.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/sta ... ng-fiction

Yes, it's already 'started' but it's not that kind of course... you can go at your own pace and many people have done more than one week, but lots of people are still just getting started. This is worth the trouble! It will make you think about the writing process.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:11 am 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
I'm pretty sure someone on this site pointed me to this course, so I want to say thank you. If you aren't the person who directed me to the course and you didn't catch the first announcement... If you want to improve your writing, you should do this course...

(It's free, of course)

It's called Start Writing Fiction.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/sta ... ng-fiction

Yes, it's already 'started' but it's not that kind of course... you can go at your own pace and many people have done more than one week, but lots of people are still just getting started. This is worth the trouble! It will make you think about the writing process.

Both Sarah and I mentioned it, I think Sarah is doing it now, I was doing the last time but had to come out due to RL, but I have put my name down for the next one that starts in April

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:55 pm 
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akaeve wrote:
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
I'm pretty sure someone on this site pointed me to this course, so I want to say thank you. If you aren't the person who directed me to the course and you didn't catch the first announcement... If you want to improve your writing, you should do this course...

(It's free, of course)

It's called Start Writing Fiction.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/sta ... ng-fiction

Yes, it's already 'started' but it's not that kind of course... you can go at your own pace and many people have done more than one week, but lots of people are still just getting started. This is worth the trouble! It will make you think about the writing process.

Both Sarah and I mentioned it, I think Sarah is doing it now, I was doing the last time but had to come out due to RL, but I have put my name down for the next one that starts in April


Thank you both for it. It's helped motivate me to focus on my writing other than fanfic - and that is a good thing. It's even sparking some new ideas.

I've created a wordpress blog for the stuff that I write as a result. This is a series of related vignettes that may lead to something. There is also other writing too. If you're doing the course, the name is the same.

https://dbjgold.wordpress.com/tag/cracks-in-the-sky/

Peace,

Blue

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:12 am 
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will have a look later today I just hope I kept some notes from the last time too.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:08 am 
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flootzavut wrote:
I sometimes feel that fanfic that can be remarketed that easily probably wasn't very good fanfic. I mean, half the point of fanfic is that we take recognisable characters and put them in new situations (or occasionally, take a recognisable milieu and fill it with new characters), and if those characters can be so easily divorced from their origins, how good was the characterisation in the first instance?


K9Lasko wrote:
I don't exactly think this is a fair statement.

I've taken at least one story originally meant as "fanfic" and changed it just enough that it fits outside of fanfic as an original short story. I've even done that in reverse. (I've also heard of other people doing similar things.)

Guess that raises the old question on the definition of what "good fanfic" is. (Not simply "good writing" but what's good and "fits" with the spirit of what fanfic is.) Some like to stay very close to canon. Some don't. Some are in the middle. Oh there's a whole discussion there! :hyper:

HOWEVER, one thing that makes me uncomfortable is "re-working" something into original fiction after it's already been published online as fanfiction. Because... technically... that piece is published, and doing anything else with it is re-publishing.


I'd like to weigh in on this discussion if no one minds now that I have a moment to stop and think about this after a crazy week.

First, Sarah is absolutely right and I think the NCIS fandom in particular highlights that. If I write a NCIS fanfiction story, I'm going to find it extremely difficult to rework it to fit an original fiction because the characters are so vivid, and so 'alive' in their own right, they take over whatever else is going on. I wouldn't even attempt to turn NCIS fiction into original. I may use bits and pieces of scenes from it that aren't specific to the characters themselves, but there would be no way I could lift the stories I've written out of NCIS fandom and make them work as original. There are too many specifics and taking out the fandom characters will leave such a fractured shell that it would be easier just to start from scratch.

That said, it's not impossible either. When I was working on my AU story that I sometimes mention, I created two OCs and while developing their back-stories, I found myself far more interested in their stories than I did the NCIS AU story I had started out with. I trashed that particular version of my AU and have been working on original fiction featuring them. Sometimes while writing one thing, you find it works better in something else and what starts out as fanfiction becomes original fiction. The two OCs though have taken some reworking. They started out as NCIS agents and I had created their backstories with NCIS in mind and am in the process of reworking them. It's not a truly easy conversion because I had their jobs and career path mapped out. However, in the fictional world I'm creating, I think they'll do better in the new roles I have in mind once I flesh out the details a bit better, but several of the same basic plots I was going to write in my NCIS AU can be used in original fiction without a whole lot of muss or fuss because basic plots are timeless, it's the characters that make them interesting or dull.

You can take any base plot and make it anything you want. It's been done through history and will be done for as long as humanity continues to exist. We've all heard the same story told countless times and in countless ways. Any story can be reworked to fit another way with enough time and effort. Even if you take a fanfiction and rework it to original, it won't be the same story because you'll have to change the characters enough that there won't be any copyright infringement and that will change the 'flavor' of the story whether you like it or not because how the characters will behave in a given situation will be altered.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) this is basically what Chelsea was trying to say. If you have an interesting plot twist and if you originally wrote that in a fanfiction, but it's clever enough to stand alone, why not turn it into an original fictional story? Some things will change because the characters will change but who hasn't read a story and hasn't used elements of it in their own work? I think we've all done it and will do it again and again. It's even fun to see how different characters will react in the same or similar situations. Each story will be unique to the characters but plots themselves always boil down to basics.

To address Chelsea's point that re-publishing one's own work after it's been posted as fanfiction, I am of the opinion it's kind of a moot point. We don't make any money off of fanfiction. We are not going to receive any accolades for our fanfiction writing (except maybe by each other, i.e. Hinkys), but overall, the world at large isn't going to know or care about what we 'publish' as fanfiction. Since money can't be made off fanfiction, copyright is a rather moot point. It only applies if you register your work, make money off of it because that gives you a legal hold on it.

There is no reason in the world a fanfiction writer can't take anything they've written as fanfiction and put it in their original work as long as the elements that make characters unique developed by someone else get gone. Even then, there are going to be similarities because there are only so many human traits and we have to share. For example, Gibbs probably isn't the only coffee-swilling grouch in the world. As long as your character doesn't also build boats in his basement and been married 4 times, widowed, and divorced 3 times thereafter, you probably don't have anything to worry about if you want your character to be a coffee-swilling grouch. Gibbs also isn't the only man in the world to walk down the aisle multiple times. If your character has, he also probably shouldn't be a coffee-swilling grouch who builds boats in his basement.

Just my 2 cents. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:23 pm 
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Yep, I've mentioned that writing course a few times. I think I've started it every time it's been offered, but life keeps getting in the way...

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For example, Gibbs probably isn't the only coffee-swilling grouch in the world.

For some reason, this made me laugh unreasonably hard.

I think again I'd say most stories can be remade and remarketed in some way or another. "Easily" is just one word, but it's a pretty important one here ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:53 pm 
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I think a fanfic can be a jumping off point for a good story. I also think that a thin veneer of disguising details does not a new story make.

As I said, I'm writing a story about my OCs... the canon characters are being reworked into characters that do some of the same things the originals did, but they aren't them. That's the point where it becomes new. Just as when Go Set a Watchman's original draft became To Kill a Mockingbird, a substantially different (and in my opinion way superior) book.

(NO idea why the publishers somehow managed decide to put together a bad draft as a new book. That was a suckass idea.) Oh, yeah, figured it out. Too fucking greedy for their own good and she's too old to be fully in control.

If you simply change names and minor details, you're not creating something new, you're plagiarizing yourself.

Blue

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:33 am 
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Great points, all around.

I guess "easily" was the word we got hung up on, because it does take some effort to re-purpose a story previously meant as fanfiction. It's not DIFFICULT, but it's not exactly a straight cut and paste job.


I'll just give an example... I wrote a short piece (2,000 words) that was basically ten brief glimpses into Tony's childhood. When I got to the end, the story was basically pretty much original--so I won't be publishing it as fanfiction.

The basic elements of Tony's childhood are definitely not unique to him! And the story does not go deeply into specifics. And I think it's a stretch that someone would immediately think, "oh that's totally so-and-so as a kid."


Quote:
Yeah, it's basically self plagiarism. I have no issues with doing what I"m doing... grabbing your own characters and creating a universe for them, but if you take canon folk and change the names... Well, that kind of is problematic for me.

Quote:
To address Chelsea's point that re-publishing one's own work after it's been posted as fanfiction, I am of the opinion it's kind of a moot point. We don't make any money off of fanfiction. We are not going to receive any accolades for our fanfiction writing (except maybe by each other, i.e. Hinkys), but overall, the world at large isn't going to know or care about what we 'publish' as fanfiction. Since money can't be made off fanfiction, copyright is a rather moot point. It only applies if you register your work, make money off of it because that gives you a legal hold on it.

Actually what I meant by "re-publishing" is the fact that even uploading stories for free on ff.net is considered publishing. If a story is on ff.net, AO3, etc etc -- it's published. So if you take that published story and shop it out to literary mags or other publishers -- despite your reworking the characters and a few plot points... the prose will more than likely remain the same -- they won't like that. Most will only publish new, unpublished works. And don't think that they won't find out about it. Even deleting stories from ff.net or the other archives won't always work, because there are people who save and distribute stories despite their being removed from archives.

(Keep in mind my experience comes mostly from writing/shopping out smaller pieces, NOT novels.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:33 pm 
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I think the further you are from canon to start with, the more likely you can easily repurpose - and sometimes it's far from canon for reasons that have nothing to do with characterisation or storytelling etc. :yes:

I think that's a really good example of a time when being far from canon isn't because the writing is bad, it's because we know relatively little about Tony's childhood and we have relatively little canon exposure to MiniTony. Even though a canon character and the known facts are the jumping off point, it's actually pretty far from canon purely because the nature of the show is not an exploration of MiniTony's life, if that makes sense? Someone reading it with their NCIS goggles on might go oh, yeah, this makes sense for Tony. Someone reading it without that in mind or with no exposure to NCIS is likely to be none the wiser, even if you changed nothing.

Whereas if you're writing a story about Tony and Gibbs and Ziva solving a case involving a Marine killing a Navy Lieutenant... you have an awful lot more canon details to tease out before you have a hope of making it even vaguely disguised.

Even if you take out the Marine/Navy/crime connection, assuming the characterisation is any good, there's a lot more stripping down that will have to take place to repurpose it; one coffee swilling bastard might go unnoticed, but if you pair him with an Israeli who mangles English idioms and a wisecracking ex-cop, NCIS fans are going to be suspicious, know what I mean?!

(Or if it is a pure cut and paste job... then yeah, not sure it speaks much for it as fanfic. Then again, I've read a few pieces of fanfic where the connection with the characters, besides name and job, was so tenuous they would work better as original fiction! Less suspension of disbelief required... ;))

Re: the republishing - I think things are slowly changing in that regard (or sometimes changing pretty fast) because the publishing industry has changed so much in recent years, especially with the advent of self-publishing as ebooks.

FSOG is a case in point - I've seen some comparisons of the original fanfic with the "new and original story", and the claim that it was substantially reworked seems pretty bogus to me, AND even the "reworked" version was initially published by a POD company, which is just barely not self-publishing, but ELJ got a sweet deal for it from Vintage despite it effectively already having been published twice.

To self-publish used to be, except in a few cases, to consign one's novel to the bin, not even the slush pile, forever, as far as trad publishers were concerned, or that's my impression. Some people make it work for them, and self-published =/= bad - and for some things, like local history, say, it's actually the better option.

These days, in contrast, there are a surprising number of indie published books who then go on to get snapped up because they're so popular, and the publishers hope for a slice of pie in return for greater exposure and advertising and, for want of a better word, credibility for the author.

(I think the rise of ebooks in particular has somewhat levelled the playing field. Convincing someone to part with a tenner for a print on demand paperback written by someone whose name they've never heard is a tougher sell than 99p for instant delivery to your Kindle and the option of returning it within a week or a fortnight if you don't like it.)

I don't know if you've seen adverts/trailers for The Martian? Based on a book which was initially self-published in 2011; a publishing house bought the rights in 2014 and republished it.

There are a few publishing houses - mostly ebook imprints of bigger houses, so far as I can tell - who seem to actively look for self-pubbed books which are already popular and fit their brand, with the aim of acquiring the rights and republishing them. Sometimes part of the benefit for the author is the help of editing and proofreading, though with a couple of the samples I've seen I dread to think how they read before :shocked: I don't think it's BIG BUSINESS!! - but I think it's more common than people realise.

I think probably most of the big, well-established publishers still don't need to go looking for talented authors, but I don't think the "this has been published/put in the public domain before so we aren't going near it with a ten foot pole" mentality is nearly as strong or pervasive as it used to be. To some publishers, having an established readership is an active selling point.

(I can imagine there might be a different set of standards for shorter pieces :yes: my experience is largely vicarious and for novel length work, not short stories.)

... hopefully I'm making more sense today, but this post got pretty long so I'm quitting while I'm ahead :th_uhoh2: :rofl:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:00 pm 
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:wavingyellow: hi Blue how is the writing course doing?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:58 pm 
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akaeve wrote:
:wavingyellow: hi Blue how is the writing course doing?


I'm half way through week seven of eight. would probably be finished by since the course is still on week three, I am in no hurry... I have to write a final bit and it's not singing out of my brain, so I'm not pushing it. it's been a fun experience anyway.

it's been fun, thanks!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:04 pm 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
akaeve wrote:
:wavingyellow: hi Blue how is the writing course doing?


I'm half way through week seven of eight. would probably be finished by since the course is still on week three, I am in no hurry... I have to write a final bit and it's not singing out of my brain, so I'm not pushing it. it's been a fun experience anyway.

it's been fun, thanks!

B

Oh is this one letting you barge ahead without having to wait for people to catch up. I know the forensic ones only let you go one week at a time.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:38 pm 
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flootzavut wrote:
I think the further you are from canon to start with, the more likely you can easily repurpose - and sometimes it's far from canon for reasons that have nothing to do with characterisation or storytelling etc. :yes:


Agreed!

flootzavut wrote:
I think that's a really good example of a time when being far from canon isn't because the writing is bad, it's because we know relatively little about Tony's childhood and we have relatively little canon exposure to MiniTony. Even though a canon character and the known facts are the jumping off point, it's actually pretty far from canon purely because the nature of the show is not an exploration of MiniTony's life, if that makes sense? Someone reading it with their NCIS goggles on might go oh, yeah, this makes sense for Tony. Someone reading it without that in mind or with no exposure to NCIS is likely to be none the wiser, even if you changed nothing.


Yes, when you start writing a fresh background for a canon character that is plausible, but completely based on what's inside your head, you aren't in trouble... though if you've published this as fanfic, that's a different matter, IMO.

There's a program that is very easy to run... I forget what it's called, but there's a simple version online where if you put your fanfic into the 'is this plagiarism?' it will search for and usually find your work online if it's been there for very long. If I were a publisher and someone had just sold me something new, I'd probably run that so no one would sue me... and if that work (even with different names) was substantially online, I'd be quite cross. If I found it on the wayback machine, I might suspect it was the author's... But apart from plagiarism, publishers simply don't want to try to sell something that's online already for free, even if it has a slightly different title and the names have been changed.

flootzavut wrote:
Whereas if you're writing a story about Tony and Gibbs and Ziva solving a case involving a Marine killing a Navy Lieutenant... you have an awful lot more canon details to tease out before you have a hope of making it even vaguely disguised.


Even use of language will be flagged. We all have language tics that we don't even know we have. (one of my stupid tics was commented on by one of my fellow students in the course I'm doing.)

flootzavut wrote:
Even if you take out the Marine/Navy/crime connection, assuming the characterisation is any good, there's a lot more stripping down that will have to take place to repurpose it; one coffee swilling bastard might go unnoticed, but if you pair him with an Israeli who mangles English idioms and a wisecracking ex-cop, NCIS fans are going to be suspicious, know what I mean?!


Absolutely. We can't pretend that the people reading won't see through the veneer we've painted on. Of course, we could do what FSOG author did and just admit that it was revised fanfic. That's common knowledge and apparently, no one cares. So, maybe that's the recipe? As long as the characters are filed down enough that the original creators don't get cranky! If I owned 'Gibbs' or 'Dinozzo' and someone created a Biggs and Nodizzi (even if the names aren't that derivative) I think I'd be looking to file a law suit for misuse of my intellectual property. Unless the author got permission and authorization to write NCIS fic, I think they might find that the character owners might be unhappy, not just any publishers.

flootzavut wrote:
(Or if it is a pure cut and paste job... then yeah, not sure it speaks much for it as fanfic. Then again, I've read a few pieces of fanfic where the connection with the characters, besides name and job, was so tenuous they would work better as original fiction! Less suspension of disbelief required... ;))

Re: the republishing - I think things are slowly changing in that regard (or sometimes changing pretty fast) because the publishing industry has changed so much in recent years, especially with the advent of self-publishing as ebooks.

FSOG is a case in point - I've seen some comparisons of the original fanfic with the "new and original story", and the claim that it was substantially reworked seems pretty bogus to me, AND even the "reworked" version was initially published by a POD company, which is just barely not self-publishing, but ELJ got a sweet deal for it from Vintage despite it effectively already having been published twice.


I hope that bodes well for me, not because I'm gonna publish fanfic, but because I'm going to self publish.

What is a POD company? Is that publish on demand?


flootzavut wrote:
To self-publish used to be, except in a few cases, to consign one's novel to the bin, not even the slush pile, forever, as far as trad publishers were concerned, or that's my impression. Some people make it work for them, and self-published =/= bad - and for some things, like local history, say, it's actually the better option.

These days, in contrast, there are a surprising number of indie published books who then go on to get snapped up because they're so popular, and the publishers hope for a slice of pie in return for greater exposure and advertising and, for want of a better word, credibility for the author.

(I think the rise of ebooks in particular has somewhat levelled the playing field. Convincing someone to part with a tenner for a print on demand paperback written by someone whose name they've never heard is a tougher sell than 99p for instant delivery to your Kindle and the option of returning it within a week or a fortnight if you don't like it.)


Let's hope I get lucky! I don't plan to get in bed with Amazon, b/c I do not like their relationship with... well, just about anyone... if they screw bigger and better than me, I don't like my chances!

I'm thinking that the fact that publishing has changed so much is as much an opportunity as a huge risk.

flootzavut wrote:
I don't know if you've seen adverts/trailers for The Martian? Based on a book which was initially self-published in 2011; a publishing house bought the rights in 2014 and republished it.



That is very exciting! The Martian is a very big deal. I figure that it's the better part of valor to put own my work out, instead of sending my 'unpublished, unproven manuscript' to a publisher who then has:
(a) the upper hand
(b) thousands of submissions from other unknowns

I have the advantage of showing that I have initiative, that (hopefully) I've sold a few copies of my book. At that point, they're negotiating with someone who's already put her work out there...

flootzavut wrote:
There are a few publishing houses - mostly ebook imprints of bigger houses, so far as I can tell - who seem to actively look for self-pubbed books which are already popular and fit their brand, with the aim of acquiring the rights and republishing them. Sometimes part of the benefit for the author is the help of editing and proofreading, though with a couple of the samples I've seen I dread to think how they read before :shocked: I don't think it's BIG BUSINESS!! - but I think it's more common than people realise.

It's a dog eat dog business. Anyone who thinks that the publisher is their friend is in for a super shock. Yeah, some of the stuff coming from publishers barely looks edited or even proofed. Some of them don't seem to have even been spell checked. Not sure how that happens!!

flootzavut wrote:
I think probably most of the big, well-established publishers still don't need to go looking for talented authors, but I don't think the "this has been published/put in the public domain before so we aren't going near it with a ten foot pole" mentality is nearly as strong or pervasive as it used to be. To some publishers, having an established readership is an active selling point.


Let's hope you're right. Let's hope I can get some sold, right?

flootzavut wrote:
(I can imagine there might be a different set of standards for shorter pieces :yes: my experience is largely vicarious and for novel length work, not short stories.)

... hopefully I'm making more sense today, but this post got pretty long so I'm quitting while I'm ahead :th_uhoh2: :rofl:


It made sense to me. Are you not feeling OK? If so, sorry. Hugs. :kisscheek:

Blue

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:52 pm 
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I'm in agreement with what you wrote. I am pretty sure the publishers will consider things already on the internet previously published. If they were attached to canon names, I suspect that without significant (more than cosmetic) changes, that might be an issue.

I do believe that something like a 'background' story for a character where you created it out of your own head is fair game for conversion... as long as those arrangements of words didn't appear on a fanfic site with only the names being different.

As for what belongs to whom? I believe that our stories belong legally to us - which is why the owners of the characters/universes can't just take them and publish them as NCIS fiction! However, we cannot publish them for money either... As I understand it, the stories and any original characters/settings are ours, but the universe and canon characters remain the intellectual property of whomever created/owns them.

fanfiction is a very 'big' thing... it's very variable. Some of it is very identifiable... If a person writes about the quirks we know and love (Ziva's language mangling, combined with dinozzo's wisecracking and McGee's geekiness... well, we're writing canon characters... especially problematic if the words were PUBLISHED online someplace because they're easily searched for.

If we make up stories about people like those but a) they never appeared on a fanfic site b) Ziva's not israeli, Dinozzo doesn't use any 'catch phrase' eg 'Mc____ for McGee and 'McGee' isn't called McAnything, then it's a different story even if you started out writing them as our three canon characters.

Please don't do what my friend did and leave the eye color and physical descriptions intact... that's a giveaway for anyone in the know even if the publisher doesn't notice! There are only so many slender men with piercing blue eyes, chiseled cheekbones, British accents and pale hair... especially paired with a blonde petite woman with green eyes who used to be called Buffy! Making Spike human doesn't make them NOT Spike and Buffy (from Buffy). It wasn't a terrible story and I don't think it was ever online, but it still read like a Spuffy story with different names.


K9Lasko wrote:
Great points, all around.

I guess "easily" was the word we got hung up on, because it does take some effort to re-purpose a story previously meant as fanfiction. It's not DIFFICULT, but it's not exactly a straight cut and paste job.


I'll just give an example... I wrote a short piece (2,000 words) that was basically ten brief glimpses into Tony's childhood. When I got to the end, the story was basically pretty much original--so I won't be publishing it as fanfiction.

The basic elements of Tony's childhood are definitely not unique to him! And the story does not go deeply into specifics. And I think it's a stretch that someone would immediately think, "oh that's totally so-and-so as a kid."


Quote:
Yeah, it's basically self plagiarism. I have no issues with doing what I"m doing... grabbing your own characters and creating a universe for them, but if you take canon folk and change the names... Well, that kind of is problematic for me.

Quote:
To address Chelsea's point that re-publishing one's own work after it's been posted as fanfiction, I am of the opinion it's kind of a moot point. We don't make any money off of fanfiction. We are not going to receive any accolades for our fanfiction writing (except maybe by each other, i.e. Hinkys), but overall, the world at large isn't going to know or care about what we 'publish' as fanfiction. Since money can't be made off fanfiction, copyright is a rather moot point. It only applies if you register your work, make money off of it because that gives you a legal hold on it.

Actually what I meant by "re-publishing" is the fact that even uploading stories for free on ff.net is considered publishing. If a story is on ff.net, AO3, etc etc -- it's published. So if you take that published story and shop it out to literary mags or other publishers -- despite your reworking the characters and a few plot points... the prose will more than likely remain the same -- they won't like that. Most will only publish new, unpublished works. And don't think that they won't find out about it. Even deleting stories from ff.net or the other archives won't always work, because there are people who save and distribute stories despite their being removed from archives.

(Keep in mind my experience comes mostly from writing/shopping out smaller pieces, NOT novels.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:56 pm 
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Yes, when you start writing a fresh background for a canon character that is plausible, but completely based on what's inside your head, you aren't in trouble... though if you've published this as fanfic, that's a different matter, IMO.

There's a program that is very easy to run... I forget what it's called, but there's a simple version online where if you put your fanfic into the 'is this plagiarism?' it will search for and usually find your work online if it's been there for very long. If I were a publisher and someone had just sold me something new, I'd probably run that so no one would sue me... and if that work (even with different names) was substantially online, I'd be quite cross. If I found it on the wayback machine, I might suspect it was the author's... But apart from plagiarism, publishers simply don't want to try to sell something that's online already for free, even if it has a slightly different title and the names have been changed.

This is EXACTLY why I DON'T plan to re-purpose anything that's already been published. :yes:
And it's true for original fiction posted on, say, Fiction Press. If it's published, it's published... Even if it's on some dinky website. But like Sarah mentioned, that might not be a total turn-off for some publishers. Obviously the publisher saw something BIG in FSOG. They bet on the right horse, I'd say.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:02 pm 
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And FSoG has another lesson for us all: sex sells. And it doesn't even have to be good sex :rofl:

(Oh, and also quality isn't always what publishers are after...)

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