NFA Community Forums

NCIS Fanfiction Addiction Forums
It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:26 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:34 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
akaeve wrote:
Quote:
Blue, Pam (channald) used to say that) in the summer when no NCIS on and holidays things are slack.

I try and post stuff of interest...well to me maybe...but I think here has gone away from full NCIS to Xovers etc, and sorry this will upset a few people, but too much slash for me now.


I wanted to comment on this but I don't want the SeSa thread to get more off topic than it already is so picking this up here...

I find the huge number of crossovers with the NCIS fandom extremely annoying. They literally litter the AO3 NCIS list (as do the recent surge of drabbles on AO3 but that's another topic). At least on FFN, crossovers are their own category and I'm grateful for that because I don't have to wade through them to find the ones that aren't crossovers. There are only a few crossovers I like and will bother to read. Maybe if most of them didn't come across as utterly ridiculous with so many tags you can pretty much guess the entire story without reading it, they might appeal more, but that's just one gal's opinion.

As for slash, honestly, most of it is better written than the general and het fiction counterparts. I notice a lot of it is poorly written and there is only a relative handful of good general and het fiction writers. The rest of them write mediocre to badly and most of it is a waste of time to read. A lot of the slash is exceptionally well-written; they seem to care more about quality, and it's one of the reasons I got drawn into slash at all. Before finding NCIS fanfiction, it never would've occurred to me to pair up the male characters but when something is so well-written that it seems very plausible, you can't help but take another look or in my case, have it become an obsession.

I actually wish there was more really good general and het fiction out there but the show writers themselves made the het pairings more problematic and difficult than they needed to be, and honestly, they're more trouble than they're worth. I've been trying to write a good het fic between Kate and Tony but I'm just not satisfied with how it's turned out. The more I write Kate the more she comes across as a stereotype rather than a character and it's really aggravating to me as a woman and as a writer.

I started out writing slash but I'm glad I didn't just stop with it. I decided early on that I want to write a variety of genres and not get pigeon-holed and I enjoy writing the variety. I'm frustrated over the lack of ability to produce a good het story to add to the gen and slash I've written but I'm still trying. Maybe eventually I'll get it right, may just not be today. *insert Cheshire cat grin here*

As for general fiction in the NCIS 'verse, it seems a lot of writers rely on character bashing and that lessens its appeal for me. I understand why writers use bashing as a device in fiction but I think it's a cheap shot. People are way more complex than character bashing often portrays and I'm pretty stunned at how often it's used in NCIS fiction. I think it's why I've read so little of it compared to slash. There's a lot of character bashing in slash as well, but most of the time, the emphasis is on the romance itself and not on the secondary characters. When it is emphasized, it takes away from the story. I know not all gen fiction relies on character bashing, but it just seems like there's a disproportionate amount. I've found some good writers that don't bash at all and invariably, the quality of their writing is good to exceptional.

I think NCIS is a great breeding ground for fanfiction because so many aspects are problematic, but it's also frustrating when you're looking for good reading material since there are so many thousands of stories and only a relative few written truly well. Maybe that's why so many writers and readers turn to crossovers or slash. Just a theory, of course.

___________________________
Words in this post: 713
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:44 pm 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
I think crossovers it really depends how and why it's done. I think some people are just aiming to catch two different fandoms, rather than actually looking for fandoms/characters that are complementary. Personally I love crossovers if they are done well, but that caveat is a biggie and often isn't the case. Some of my favourite stories are crossovers, but some of my least favourites are, too!

I totally agree about the character bashing. I honestly find it pretty boring in and of itself, but it's also often used as a prop for shipping; I forget who posted it, but I remember someone (here, I think, though a long time ago) doing a little pastiche summary of bashing-for-shipping-purposes in which Ziva and McGee ended up in, like, Guantanamo or something (I think it was loosely a Dead Air story), and Tony and Gibbs ended up gettin' hot loving. It was kind of hilarious because it really did apply to so many stories from that period. If I can lay my hands on it, I'll post the link. It was just a summary, not an actual story, but boy was it acutely observed and accurate!

Similarly, bashing of McGee for Tiva purposes, or of Tony for McGiva, etc etc. I think it's fine to bring out the negative as well as positive traits of these characters, they're not paragons (I always admire writers who can capitalise on their bad as well as good points), but when characters get demonised (even if it's in favour of a ship I love), I'm gonna be closing the window PDQ.

(I know that I'm not alone in finding it annoying when people think I ship pairing AB because I share their distaste for character C; I get this about Tony when I'm writing Kibbs, I believe Sherry does also for Tony when she's writing McGiva. It's frustrating when people assume that you write a pairing because you want to avoid pairing Tony with anyone rather than because you think Kate and Gibbs or Tim and Ziva would make good couples.)

One of the benefits of my favoured ships being relatively unpopular is that "wading through" thousands of stories is not an issue. There are more than 10 times as many Tibbs stories on AO3, for example, than Kibbs (and I wrote a third of the Kibbs ones myself LOL), and several thousand versus just over a thousand on FFN. There's a lot less reading material to choose from, but it's quite literally possible to read or at least try most of it. On the downside of course, that means I regularly run out. Swings and roundabouts :confusion-shrug:

___________________________
Words in this post: 450
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:20 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
I check on the NCIS ficfind on LJ to see if there's a request for a fic that I'm familiar with, but the majority are Tony, Gibbs or Tibbs requests, usually with Tim and Ziva being evil and needing to be taught a lesson about poor, pitiful Tony and how amazing he is. :eyeroll: Don't get me started on the Dead Air requests. :P

But I've written a couple of stories that got people hopping. One even accused me of hating everyone on the show simply because I capitalized on their negative traits. Admittedly, I've written a few that could be construed as bashing, but at the same time, I don't think I am because I try to show them sympathetically as well. Big mistakes coming from character flaws can create amazing stories. But then, maybe I'm just kidding myself. ;D

___________________________
Words in this post: 157
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:24 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
I don't find character bashing boring so much as shallow (though it could be argued that shallow characters are boring, of course). I've read so many stories where the bashed characters are portrayed as two-dimensional and they completely ignore the third dimension which makes lousy characterization. No one is perfect and even someone 'evil' can do something good. On the flip side, I've read some good bashing fics where the bashed characters get redemption and those are better because at least it's more 3-dimensional.

That said, reading bashing fics can be beneficial especially if your favorite character is being bashed. It can serve as a really good reminder that your favored character is FAR from perfect and help portray them more realistically in your own stories. In that sense, I think reading them has helped me write McNozzo (whether friendship or romance) better because both Tim and Tony have been horrible to each other at times. I think it also helped me write Gibbs better, too, because he's been abominable to all the characters at one time or another. Whether I succeed or not, don't know, but I try. I actually kind of like reading bashing fics because I try to find the point where the author went too far and where the balance would've been. I think it has helped me be a better writer in that respect.

And when I talked about wading through stories, I meant all the NCIS stories at AO3 to find the noncrossovers, not any genre in particular. Though it's exceptionally difficult to find good general stories and good Tiva stories in the heap. If you don't already know good authors, it can be daunting. At least on both large fiction sites, you can at least filter for your favorite pairing and that works most of the time. You're always going to miss some, but I often rely on other peoples' favorites or bookmarks to find good stories.

The amount of Ziva demonization is disheartening. She started out as a great character but the show writers were all over the place with her and wrecked her character. It's sad that even Cote de Pablo realized that and she left over it. Frankly, I'm surprised she hadn't left long before she did, but I suppose it was a paycheck and actors have to eat, too. Just seems a lot more Ziva bashing compared to the others, but I'm not 100% sure of that since I haven't read that many bashing fics recently but I remember coming across a lot in the past.

What amazes me is how many Tony-centered stories there are. Compared to the others, there are TONS and TONS. He's a great character, but given what a jerk he can be to the others, I'm really surprised that there are just so many. Rather mind-boggling, it is. Maybe those of us who love Tony just want to redeem him, and I'm guilty of that. :gibbssmack:

___________________________
Words in this post: 500
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:42 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
I check on the NCIS ficfind on LJ to see if there's a request for a fic that I'm familiar with, but the majority are Tony, Gibbs or Tibbs requests, usually with Tim and Ziva being evil and needing to be taught a lesson about poor, pitiful Tony and how amazing he is. :eyeroll: Don't get me started on the Dead Air requests. :P

But I've written a couple of stories that got people hopping. One even accused me of hating everyone on the show simply because I capitalized on their negative traits. Admittedly, I've written a few that could be construed as bashing, but at the same time, I don't think I am because I try to show them sympathetically as well. Big mistakes coming from character flaws can create amazing stories. But then, maybe I'm just kidding myself. ;D


No, you're not kidding yourself. You're right. Character flaws make characters interesting, but I think a lot of fanfiction writers take those flaws to the extreme, especially in Dead Air, which had one scene of a poor judgment call but it created a tidal wave. I've seen 'fixes' done well and done not-so-well but Tim and Ziva ending up in Gitmo is so over the top it's laughable. Those bashing fics make good comedy if you're in the right mood.

Dog Tags were the show writers themselves taking character flaws to extreme. I've always wanted to rewrite that episode in a fanfic because the entire story was portrayed so unrealistically. It's almost impossible to do so though. I could write reams on everything that was wrong with that episode without ever getting to how horrible Tim was treated by the others. Mostly though, everyone was just horribly out of character and whoever wrote that episode should have been kicked out of Hollywood.

Teri, it's most likely that they accused you of hating all the characters because that's easier than acknowledging that their favorites are less than perfect. Just a theory.

___________________________
Words in this post: 348
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:54 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
Dog Tags and Mother's Day. I loathe those two episodes with every fiber of my being. Dog Tags put the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned with Abby. Her childish, immature and heartless reaction to Tim nearly having his throat ripped out by a dog on drugs was inexcusable and I'm not sure why the writers thought it was a good idea. Mother's Day made me hate Gibbs. Even now, every time someone would point to Gibbs (in the show) as this great investigator and amazing person, I scoffed because he allowed a woman to get off for cold-blooded murder. Not murder in the heat of the moment, but a carefully planned killing of a person she had decided was guilty.

I've read a few Dog Tags rewrites. Some are good, some aren't. Most don't deal with bashing but with showing what the real consequences could be for what happened to Tim. Shywriter wrote a tag to Mother's Day that fixed it to some degree, but even she had trouble doing that and she's a lawyer. :)

___________________________
Words in this post: 189
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:38 pm 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
I think NCIS may be the one show where the series' own writers are worse at character assassination and belittling than fanfic writers. I think bashfic is lazy writing and I really haven't any use for bashing, not even for characters I detest.

_____

I am open to all fic, but I find that in NCIS the het characters are difficult to put into stories b/c even the long running female characters have been diminished by the writers. If you look at them all, here is one or more reason to view ALL of them with uttter and complete disrespect and disdain, sometimes even disgust. Look carefully. The women are weak or mean or shrill... or downright dishonest... Even the newest female (the former instructor) has already been shown to have 'let her partner die' and be mawkish and kind of maudlin emotionally. She is WEAK as made by the writers.

Further, all the women of NCIS are more or less two dimensional. Gibbs' first wife is two dimensional and angelic, (because she's dead she can be pure!!) The sexual politics of NCIS are horrendous.

None of the males on the series have received that 'treatment' though Tony came close, they always pulled him back with something heroic and they partly salvaged him by showing him with Jeanne.

They need someone to lend them the Buffy writers for a year so they get some complex relationship dynamics and strong female characterizations going.

I think one reason slash is even more prevalent in NCIS than other fandoms is that often I get the feeling the female characters are played for either pathos or farce and not as individual characters in and of themselves. (Diane even gets to be both!)

Even if they start out great with character and strength, they start getting undercut immediately. I don't think we'd even met Jenny before we found out she was 'sexing the Jethro' and by innuendo, maybe wasn't that moral (maybe she'd slept her way to director?) or competent a leader.

+ Kate was both a prude and she screwed her coworker. this also made her seem like a hypocrite.
+ The smartest person in the entire show is also a ditz. And although it's kind of 'cute' that she's into all that 'goth stuff', well, it also makes her seem juvenile. (Abby) Now, she seems almost sexless. A goth nun mother hen.
+ Ziva was strong and competent initially, but by the end of the run, she'd become neurotic with little identity of her own outside of her not quite relationship with Tony.

- The Replacement 'girls'
I can't even remember her name is so colorless - Bishop. Then her perky, quirky self is quickly swept away as her perfect marriage to Mr. Apollo goes down in flames and she runs off to her family to lick her wounds making her look weak.

So, where are the characters we want to build relationships with? The guest females are somewhere between stupid, making terrible choices (Tim's sister) neurotic, harridan or plain shrewish.

Our male characters... well, they aren't perfectly written, but they are more or less three dimensional, and other than the 'man slut' Dinozzo was shown to apparently be, they aren't tarred with the 'slept with the wrong person brush.

And the slash... well, the chemistry between the various main male characters is already plain. It's not sexual chemistry, it's emotional chemistry, it's humor, it's CONNECTION. The women are largely on the periphery even in the stories that feature them. The story ends up being about Gibbs saving them, (or Dinozzo looking for Ziva.) The men act. The women respond.

The men are intimately involved with each other. (Nearly all the women are somewhat intimately connected to Gibbs at one point or another, (emotionally in some way, not sexually) but not really to anyone else and it isn't sustained).

Early on, Tim and Abby did connect to a degree, but that was ripped right up and stomped on. Tony's only real connection to Ziva has always been sexuality and antagonism. Not a foundation, really. So, other than building all my het relationships with Gibbs, there's not a lot of good hooks to build a believable, 'round' heterosexual connection with any female and male character in NCIS without building it yourself pretty much from scratch.

So, when those of us who are comfortable with same sex relationships look to the show for relationships, we see more 'obviousness' in Gibbs' constant headslaps of Tony and Tony's endless teasing of Tim and even the teasing with the two new guys... Vance and Gibbs are in a constant power struggle, but fundamentally, we see them as true friends. Gibbs and his mentor shared his recovery from losing his wife and other things as well. Gibbs and Fornell are already like old married people... they just are... so... fun to write. Just add another little shade of emotional intimacy from slightly different point of view to any of these, and there goes a same sex pairing, almost ripe to be plucked.

In Buffy, I write both straight and gay relationships and find a lot to explore, even permutations that seem weird can be made to work, b/c all the characters, even relatively minor ones have dimensions. You can almost predict how characters that have never met would react to each other and unlike NCIS, the women are as well drawn as the men.

If I wrote more NCIS, (and I have been) I could see myself easily writing mostly gay relationships... and now with Fornell, Gibbs, Vance and Tony all being in the widower's club? Well, that much lonely makes for a really great reason to break down 'normal' barriers. And that much sympatico -- the ability to really 'get' the other person? (and as someone who was widowed young, I really get a lot of the kinds of issues that they all face from prime of life to middle age) That really does work to push people closer even if not romantically. So you have 4 people who all 'get' the same quality of grief and loss... It is easy to see their relationships growing closer... and then some of us just like getting in the heads of men...


And the world is so full of unequal relationships.

Add one more ingredient that isn't specific to NCIS fanfic: I think slash appeals to the women (and it is mostly women who write slash) because it is about partnerships of FULL EQUALS.

___________________________
Words in this post: 1084

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:44 pm 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
Dog Tags and Mother's Day. I loathe those two episodes with every fiber of my being. Dog Tags put the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned with Abby. Her childish, immature and heartless reaction to Tim nearly having his throat ripped out by a dog on drugs was inexcusable and I'm not sure why the writers thought it was a good idea. Mother's Day made me hate Gibbs. Even now, every time someone would point to Gibbs (in the show) as this great investigator and amazing person, I scoffed because he allowed a woman to get off for cold-blooded murder. Not murder in the heat of the moment, but a carefully planned killing of a person she had decided was guilty.

I've read a few Dog Tags rewrites. Some are good, some aren't. Most don't deal with bashing but with showing what the real consequences could be for what happened to Tim. Shywriter wrote a tag to Mother's Day that fixed it to some degree, but even she had trouble doing that and she's a lawyer. :)


Gibbs:
I can see very few situations where Gibbs would let someone get away with murder... but... given that HE HAS murdered someone? I can see ONE where he just might. If someone had their family annihilated in some senseless manner, I could see him letting them get vengeance.

Abby:
Anyone who makes fun of someone's fear is despicable IMO. That was just one more example of the writers' the 'diminishment' of the character. And there's little to build her up. She just becomes less three dimensional, and less 'relatable' as time goes on. (Unlike Gibbs who gets to be heroic on a regular basis)

___________________________
Words in this post: 295

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:33 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
I always wondered if the actors might've read the 'Dog Tags' script and protested the dialogue and scenes but were over-ruled so they had to go along with it. I can't imagine Pauley Perrette herself approved of how Abby was written.

I also sometimes wonder if they were all given a completely different impression on how the story was going to go and then in the cutting room, they made it that horrible episode and the actors were horrified afterward but weren't allowed to speak of it or something.

I just can't figure it out.

___________________________
Words in this post: 95
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
PhoenixRising wrote:
I always wondered if the actors might've read the 'Dog Tags' script and protested the dialogue and scenes but were over-ruled so they had to go along with it. I can't imagine Pauley Perrette herself approved of how Abby was written.

I also sometimes wonder if they were all given a completely different impression on how the story was going to go and then in the cutting room, they made it that horrible episode and the actors were horrified afterward but weren't allowed to speak of it or something.

I just can't figure it out.

considering how unequal women have been treated in CBS, I'm not sure Perette would have felt comfortable to have a say.

___________________________
Words in this post: 116

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:40 am 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
I agree bashing is usually shallow, but if I'm honest, the reason I close the tab is boredom :rofl:

Regarding Tony having a lot of stories; in general, people (women included!) are willing to forgive male characters much more than female ones. I know I've had a couple of people make comments on stories of mine about what a "bitch" Kate is, for example (not always in so many words), and yet people are willing to forgive Tony for some real jerkass behaviour and, with Kate for example, some kinda... well, somewhat stalkery behaviour.

I love when writers can show the characters I enjoy and not gloss over their faults (something I suspect I'm fairly guilty of). Chelsea is exceptionally good at that, IMO. Looking at difficult aspects of these characters without making the reader hate them or think she hates them - I'm always impressed.

I think Ziva is a classic example of people being unwilling to forgive female characters. The writers messed around with her and spoiled her characterisation at times... but they've done that for all the characters at some point or another. Anomalies are forgiven elsewhere, but Ziva gets demonised a lot. Draw your own conclusions... :-/ (I don't blame Cote for leaving, either; I feel like they ran out of ideas for both Tony and Ziva except for Tiva, and that showed a little even after Cote left. It became very one-dimensional.) Similarly, Ziva's dating choices are often held against her in fandom, even though we are actually shown only a handful of guys she's been with, and most of those were in serious relationships. I mean, I'm not here for slut-shaming anyway, but in a fandom where you have Tony, how is it Ziva who gets called out for that?? :confusion-shrug:

Mother's Day is stupid. I mean, as I understand it, it doesn't even make sense legally. Stupid episode. (And honestly, I feel like the conclusion they wanna leave you with - that she will get away with it - doesn't actually fit the characters very well either. It makes more sense if you work on the assumption Gibbs doesn't want it to be him who puts her away, but also knows that on the evidence, Joanne will get caught and put away by someone else. That would make way more sense to me, and it's how I headcanon it, but I don't think it's what was intended.)

That said, there are so many stupid moments in various episodes, there's so much contradiction and nonsense, that I pretty much treat canon as my pick-and-mix to do with what I will! I mean, they do stuff as inane as having Gibbs' family die on a date that doesn't exist, so really, what do they expect?? :rofl:

Don't even get me started on the Jenny debacle. I love her in theory - female agency director? Yes! Gimme! - but the execution is absolutely dire. I mean, her very first intro ever is pretty much instantly juxtaposed with her and Gibbs in bed together, I just... Even if they absolutely desperately wanted to make her Gibbs' ex, it would've been nice if they could have given her a little while to become a character in her own right before they made her all about Gibbs. Even five minutes? As I recall, it's more like thirty seconds, if that :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: whoever wrote that should be ashamed, tbh. And then they go on to make her meddle in cases, and to eventually be intent on revenge to the point of her vengeance being more important than the agency or even, it sometimes seems, her agents.

Edited to add: I just checked, out of interest. The time between seeing the back of Jenny's head (not even her face) for the first time to seeing two people rolling around in bed, with the strong implication (rapidly confirmed) that this is past Jenny and Gibbs? Less than ten seconds. I gave them too much credit when I said it was thirty :gibbssmack: :gibbssmack: :gibbssmack:

(The Kill Ari episodes always read to me like they were written by committee, and not everyone knew what was going on elsewhere. The Jenny stuff is symptomatic. I mean, when they literally are in the midst of trying to get justice for Kate being shot in the head, would Morrow really have used that as his metaphor for why he wouldn't pass the directorship on to Gibbs?? Even if he hated Kate (which I see no evidence of - besides anything else, he's part of seeing her posthumously honoured by the President), why would he be so callous to Gibbs, who he's always seemed fond of? It's a stupid line.)

Every time I watch seasons 3-5, I hate the Jenny arc more. Not least because it could and should have been excellent.

The most (to me) credible woman to woman connection on the show was probably Kate and Abby. They always seemed to get along, they talked about non-work issues with one another, and it was implied and sometimes outright stated that their friendship reached outside the confines of NCIS, though I don't remember ever seeing that on screen. (We got told about Kate staying at Abby's or about them going on a spa weekend together, we didn't see it actually happen.)

It wouldn't surprise me that much if some of the truly horrible episodes were made that way in the cutting room. Actually, when I think about it - I'm not sure of this, but I think I've seen it implied that the actors don't necessarily see the final cut before it's broadcast. When you see actors live-tweeting episodes or even sometimes in commentaries, I get the impression they don't always know exactly what they're going to see. So regardless of whether they'd get any say in objecting to how their character is being portrayed, I'm not sure they would necessarily even know ahead of broadcast. (I imagine Harmon, with his exec. producer credit, may well see episodes ahead of time if he wishes, but I wouldn't assume that about anyone else.)

___________________________
Words in this post: 1109
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:41 am 
Offline
Senior Field Agent
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 8483
Title: Native Nebraska NCIS fan
Name: Cookie, Lori
Aliases: tigyr
Gender: Female
link: My Story Board stories
link: My Fanfiction.net account
Regarding the DogTags episode, I actually had a reviewer to one of my stories say that they laughed their arse off about the whole thing, from the start of Tim being bitten to the part where Abby foisted the dog off onto Tim, that whole fate/destiny thing...that was a reason why I posted the story where he died due to the dog killing him later

___________________________
Words in this post: 65
_______________________
Image
banner by Gossamer Moonglow


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:59 am 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
It was horribly unrealistic, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was funny. Whoever wrote that episode clearly had never been bit by a dog before. I can tell you, with the severity of his injuries, he would have been in the hospital getting IV antibiotics and the good drugs for pain control. He definitely wouldn't be working a case and Abby would've been chomping at the bit to go visit him because she'd be worried about him. And if the dog was really hyped up on cocaine, it would've been just as dangerous to Abby as it was to Tim. Maybe that was what they were laughing at? I have no idea. The whole episode was a string of abominations packed into 40-some-odd minutes.

Lori, got a link to that story? I want to read it.

___________________________
Words in this post: 140
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:13 am 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
With Jenny, I've said before that I wished they had just made Jenny into Gibbs' former probie rather than his former lover. It would be hard enough for Gibbs to take orders from someone he trained. Really, I don't care if they have a female or male director. That makes absolutely no difference to me as long as they do well with the stories, but really, the best director was Morrow, simply because he was in the background, as a director likely would be, not directly involved in numerous cases as Vance has been. Don't get me wrong, I like Vance, but I think the writers have had to shoehorn him into a lot of episodes where the director just wouldn't be involved.

Regarding Jenny, I read once (and I can't remember where, so I don't know if it was legitimate or not) that originally, she was supposed to be a one-off character, introduced and then killed off in Kill Ari to give one more victim before they took Ari down. Tim has a line about Ari always going after the women, but at that point, it was really only Abby and Kate. But then, DPB liked the idea of having a female director and made her a regular instead. Given that drastic a change, the writers may have scrambled a bit to fit her in during season three. That doesn't excuse 4 and 5 (although I genuinely enjoyed her during the Halloween episode in season 5. She was actually portrayed as a real director!), but at least it explains some of the fast and loose details.

___________________________
Words in this post: 267
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:15 am 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
PhoenixRising wrote:
It was horribly unrealistic, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was funny. Whoever wrote that episode clearly had never been bit by a dog before. I can tell you, with the severity of his injuries, he would have been in the hospital getting IV antibiotics and the good drugs for pain control. He definitely wouldn't be working a case and Abby would've been chomping at the bit to go visit him because she'd be worried about him. And if the dog was really hyped up on cocaine, it would've been just as dangerous to Abby as it was to Tim. Maybe that was what they were laughing at? I have no idea. The whole episode was a string of abominations packed into 40-some-odd minutes.

Lori, got a link to that story? I want to read it.


Having been attacked and bitten by dogs, I will tell you it is a terrifying experience. (once when I was about 8, a large German Shepherd, the second time a bunch of feral dogs, who while small were also in a huge pack and only the fact that a) they were little b) i was fast c) all together it was impossible for more than a couple of them to actually bite me (I still have a scar on my right hip from the rip that one of them made, and I was about 11 and I tend not to scar easily, so you know it was deep). and d) I probably killed a few of them by kicking them very, very hard. I arrived home with the bottom half of my dress missing (dressed only to mid chest)

If someone survives something like that, they're shocky and jumpy and easily terrorized... and they're in pain. I was in pain for a while. If the animal ingested the cocaine orally, he may have introduced cocaine into the wound as well, which would have who knows what results particularly if it entered the bloodstream.

I didn't see anything funny in that episode.

And no, I didn't then and still don't hate dogs and have never had a phobia of them, but after the beach feral dog attack i NEVER took that route again even though other routes involved much larger distances or swimming in a fairly dangerous (strong currents, rocky underfoot) 'beach'. I am still nervous of new dogs, though I have the discipline not to make sudden moves, I am sure my heart rate goes up 20-30 bpm every time I encounter them.

And if someone has any degree of true phobia (which I got the idea Tim did - if i'm wrong, correct me please) that's a whole different level of reaction, even if the person is normally very calm. Phobias can provoke an almost psychotic (including severely violent) escape seeking reaction that has zero basis in rationality - from total calm to complete panicked hysteria, like an off/on switch.

Nice people don't EVER play with the phobias of others.

Particularly not of their friends. It's the unforgivable sin if you are claim to be a friend of a person. Even mildly phobic people experience a significant flight/fight response (mostly flight) when cornered by the source of their fear.

___________________________
Words in this post: 540

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:47 pm 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
With Jenny, I've said before that I wished they had just made Jenny into Gibbs' former probie rather than his former lover. It would be hard enough for Gibbs to take orders from someone he trained.

I agree sooooo hard. There would've been plenty of tension and conflict without it, and I think it really undermined her character to make her yet another old flame of Gibbs'

Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
Regarding Jenny, I read once (and I can't remember where, so I don't know if it was legitimate or not) that originally, she was supposed to be a one-off character, introduced and then killed off in Kill Ari to give one more victim before they took Ari down. Tim has a line about Ari always going after the women, but at that point, it was really only Abby and Kate. But then, DPB liked the idea of having a female director and made her a regular instead. Given that drastic a change, the writers may have scrambled a bit to fit her in during season three. That doesn't excuse 4 and 5 (although I genuinely enjoyed her during the Halloween episode in season 5. She was actually portrayed as a real director!), but at least it explains some of the fast and loose details.

That would actually make a lot more sense of Jenny's character, tbh. Although it would be irritating in a different way to have them intro a female character and then immediately fridge them for manpain, in some ways I think it would be a lot less annoying than what we actually got :rolleyes:

___________________________
Words in this post: 275
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:03 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
I'm actually kind of surprised at the number of Jenny/Gibbs romances, none of which I've ever read. I was never actually sure if Gibbs had loved her or if they just used each other for sex. Either way, I'm glad they never got back together.

I always thought Jenny was pretty eye candy, but didn't contribute much to the show until the Frog story line. With that story line, I thought she did well with what she had to work with, script-wise.

I didn't like the story itself because I couldn't get past how poorly they wrote Jeanne. Scottie Thompson did the best she could with what she had to work with, but sorry, for a doctor she came across as too needy and pathetic and most docs I've ever dealt with or transcribed come across as confident and independent and can handle crises with aplomb and Jeanne did not. I couldn't imagine Tony ever loving a woman like that and I just couldn't get past that to enjoy the arc. I spent that whole arc wanting to slap the writers for being so clueless. I thought they messed that story up beyond repair. However, at the end, I thought Jeanne acted completely appropriately, they at least got that part right. Poor Jeanne and Tony - they both got royally kicked on that one. *sigh*

___________________________
Words in this post: 225
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:34 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
One of my issues with the Frog storyline was how ridiculous Tony's undercover was. He was pretending to be a professor of film (right?) and when Gibbs asks Jenny about how deep his cover is, she says it's as deep as possible. ...and yet, Tony goes to his regular job every day. There's no worry about maybe running into her other places. When the episode wasn't about the Frog stuff, Tony was just normal as if there was no other case going on at all. It just seems silly to me that Tony could have been deep undercover when he's walking around outside, working cases as if there's no chance that a doctor might happen to see him on TV (during media coverage of a crime) or if he was injured at work or some other such thing. Tony was not deep undercover. He was barely undercover at all!

___________________________
Words in this post: 149
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:36 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
Plus, that op started when he was a newbie team lead, thrown into it without warning or training, had to train a probie, had to teach Tim the SFA work plus he had Abby slapping training stickers on his back and constant criticism for how he did things and Gibbs acted like a jerk when he got back.

The whole story was done poorly for the sake of entertaining television, never mind it would've been impossible for an actual NCIS agent under the best of circumstances, which I don't imagine there are many, if any.

Just ridiculous. Sometimes the fanfic writers do better than the show writers, which is rather mind-blowing since they supposedly have a NCIS consultant. My guess: They ignore the consultant for the sake of TV. I think they make the real NCIS look bad at times. I always wonder how many agents watch the show and facepalm. I do and I'm not an NCIS agent. LOL

___________________________
Words in this post: 160
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:25 am 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 68921
Location: Usually in bed with Gibbs
Title: Gibbs' Gal forever
Name: Patsy
Aliases: pattywatty
Gender: Female
link: My Author Board
link: My Fanfic.net
Flag: Image
Me personally I think the show began to get "silly" from about season 7-11, it was if the whole show was in wilderness for 4years...oh dear just thought it's me isn't it I just don't or didn't get Ziva...I would have preferred Paula as a full time agent. Then we had all the "lets get" Gibbs a girlfriend or even Tony, but getting Tim a girl was good.

But hey I'm only saying what I think my own liking of the show...even MH got a bit "silly".

___________________________
Words in this post: 87
_______________________
Image]
ImageImageImage

sig by McMhuirich thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:03 am 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
Season 7 started really well. I still think that, in spite of its logical faults, Truth or Consequences is one of the best of the series, but season 7 also ending about the worst that I've ever seen with Mother's Day and the whole stupid thing with the drug dealer's daughter where they were trying to make Gibbs into some hero again, but he wasn't so I rolled my eyes and wondered if I could keep watching. So I can go along with your thought. Up to the point that Ziva left (not that I think it's Cote de Pablo's fault), the show was getting very ridiculous, culminating in the death of Jackie Vance which was, for me, pretty much the final straw.

___________________________
Words in this post: 123
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:39 am 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
Jackie Vance's death was the most senseless death in the entire series with Diane's death being a close runner-up. I still can't wrap my head around it.

I thought the show should've ended with the whole Abby discovers Gibbs' secret that he murdered the man who killed Shannon and Kelly story line. To me, that's pretty much where the show ended. I really need to write that. It was a good stopping point. From there, it's been nothing but embarrassing.

___________________________
Words in this post: 80
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:44 am 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 68921
Location: Usually in bed with Gibbs
Title: Gibbs' Gal forever
Name: Patsy
Aliases: pattywatty
Gender: Female
link: My Author Board
link: My Fanfic.net
Flag: Image
PhoenixRising wrote:
Jackie Vance's death was the most senseless death in the entire series with Diane's death being a close runner-up. I still can't wrap my head around it.

I thought the show should've ended with the whole Abby discovers Gibbs' secret that he murdered the man who killed Shannon and Kelly story line. To me, that's pretty much where the show ended. I really need to write that. It was a good stopping point. From there, it's been nothing but embarrassing.


Actually I thought 14 ok, but then it maybe because we had new people a different kettle of fish.

___________________________
Words in this post: 99
_______________________
Image]
ImageImageImage

sig by McMhuirich thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:30 pm 
Offline
MTAC Technician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:11 am
Posts: 6917
Location: Western NY
Name: Andrea
Aliases: stargazer218
Gender: Female
link: My fanfic.net Page
link: My Author Board
link: Tumblr
Quote:
I find the huge number of crossovers with the NCIS fandom extremely annoying. They literally litter the AO3 NCIS list (as do the recent surge of drabbles on AO3 but that's another topic). At least on FFN, crossovers are their own category and I'm grateful for that because I don't have to wade through them to find the ones that aren't crossovers.


I agree!! I like to write the occasional crossover, but I HATE having to wade through them. AO3 definitely needs better filters. Thank the fates that FF.net has the separate category. I do think that FF.net should make a separate category for slash... that's the ONE thing that mixes in with the rest of the stories. I read mostly Gen (I'm open to pretty much anything, but like Gen the best), and I have to wade through 172 slash fics to get to a good Gen fic.

Quote:
I think NCIS is a great breeding ground for fanfiction because so many aspects are problematic, but it's also frustrating when you're looking for good reading material since there are so many thousands of stories and only a relative few written truly well. Maybe that's why so many writers and readers turn to crossovers or slash. Just a theory, of course.


It's REALLY hard to find good writers. I get so excited when I come across a great writer. In fact, Teri (Enthusiatic Fish) is the writer whom I followed over here, because her writing is just so fantastic!

___________________________
Words in this post: 249
_______________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:08 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
fallenangel218 wrote:
It's REALLY hard to find good writers. I get so excited when I come across a great writer. In fact, Teri (Enthusiatic Fish) is the writer whom I followed over here, because her writing is just so fantastic!


No doubt! I didn't discover Teri's stories until after I found this forum, but to be honest I didn't find much good gen fic at all until I found NFA. Then I was like, "Ah, here is where all the good gen writers are!" There are actually only a few gen writers I like outside of this forum. One is ytteb over at FFN. She is an excellent writer! I nominated one of her stories for a Hinky last time. She didn't win, which bummed me out, but the story I nominated is one of my top 10 favorite gen fics ever.

I've read so many fanfics now that I've had to make favorites for each category. I have favorites for specific pairings, favorites for case fics, favorites for friendship fics, and so on. Yeah, I might be a little geeky like that. :rolleyes:

___________________________
Words in this post: 191
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:16 pm 
Offline
Senior Field Agent
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:40 pm
Posts: 10893
Location: ORLANDO
I'm one of the few who has no real beef with the Dog Tags episode. Same with the Dead Air one. They are just a couple of the more idiotic episodes meant to provide a laugh while almost becoming pure farce. It's not meant to be taken seriously. I did enjoy the dog in Dog Tags.

flootzavut wrote:
I love when writers can show the characters I enjoy and not gloss over their faults (something I suspect I'm fairly guilty of). Chelsea is exceptionally good at that, IMO. Looking at difficult aspects of these characters without making the reader hate them or think she hates them - I'm always impressed.

Thank you :blush:

Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
One of my issues with the Frog storyline was how ridiculous Tony's undercover was. He was pretending to be a professor of film (right?) and when Gibbs asks Jenny about how deep his cover is, she says it's as deep as possible. ...and yet, Tony goes to his regular job every day. There's no worry about maybe running into her other places. When the episode wasn't about the Frog stuff, Tony was just normal as if there was no other case going on at all. It just seems silly to me that Tony could have been deep undercover when he's walking around outside, working cases as if there's no chance that a doctor might happen to see him on TV (during media coverage of a crime) or if he was injured at work or some other such thing. Tony was not deep undercover. He was barely undercover at all!

Thanks for this. Makes me laugh every time. Deep cover. Real deep. "I'm going to the dentist" is code for "just popping out to go deep undercover for an hour or so."

PhoenixRising wrote:
fallenangel218 wrote:
It's REALLY hard to find good writers. I get so excited when I come across a great writer. In fact, Teri (Enthusiatic Fish) is the writer whom I followed over here, because her writing is just so fantastic!


No doubt! I didn't discover Teri's stories until after I found this forum, but to be honest I didn't find much good gen fic at all until I found NFA. Then I was like, "Ah, here is where all the good gen writers are!" There are actually only a few gen writers I like outside of this forum. One is ytteb over at FFN. She is an excellent writer! I nominated one of her stories for a Hinky last time. She didn't win, which bummed me out, but the story I nominated is one of my top 10 favorite gen fics ever.

I've read so many fanfics now that I've had to make favorites for each category. I have favorites for specific pairings, favorites for case fics, favorites for friendship fics, and so on. Yeah, I might be a little geeky like that. :rolleyes:

Unilocular is a fantastic author (outside of NFA) of gen stories. I love recommending her stuff.

___________________________
Words in this post: 508
_______________________
"He's thrown a kettle over a pub. What have you ever done?"
- Gareth Keenan

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:43 pm 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
PhoenixRising wrote:
I'm actually kind of surprised at the number of Jenny/Gibbs romances, none of which I've ever read. I was never actually sure if Gibbs had loved her or if they just used each other for sex. Either way, I'm glad they never got back together.

My headcanon is that there was something there between them back in the day, but that by the era of S3, they were both very different people. Jenny clearly chose her job over Gibbs (which is okay, more power to her), and for Gibbs it was at least partly a Shannon-replacement effort (not his first nor his last sassy redhead, I don't think). How much of it was real once upon a time is up for grabs, but by the time she became director it was mostly nostalgia. I think Gibbs (erroneously) tended to think of her as the woman he'd known, and Jenny for her part didn't really know how to relate to Gibbs, swinging between trusting him (maybe too much) and keeping stuff from him and poking her nose on in a not terribly logical way. (Which I think was possibly down to the writers not being sure what to do with her, but in-universe, my best explanation is a lack of closure and two very stubborn people not willing either to give it a go or admit it was dead.)

I have written a grand total of one kinda sorta Jibbs story (it's after she died, and it's not that Jenny/Jibbs-friendly How to say Goodbye) which to my mind was basically Gibbs being sad but also angry and more mourning who she once was rather than who she was when she died/being ambiguous-to-mildly-negative about their relationship as a whole... and I got a review on FFN from someone who obviously took me to be a True Believer in the Good Ship Jibbs. So... ya know, takes all sorts, and where I saw (and thought I wrote) a sad end to a troubled and antagonistic relationship between two people who'd grown further apart than they ever grew together, someone else saw on screen and even in my story the (I'm quoting from memory so may not be word for word) the other love of his life besides Shannon :confusion-shrug: beats me :bwah:

I think Lauren Holly did okay with what she was given, but I think a lot of what she was given was trash. I also think that giving her an unidentified terminal illness then having her die in a shootout was kind of a copout; the way she (mis)used her position of power, I think they wrote themselves into a corner and they didn't want her indicted, but... yeah. Basically, there's very little in the Jenny arc that I like, even if I love some of the individual stories during her tenure.

I actually love, in general, the balance they've struck with Vance. He's not around so much that you wonder when he does his directoring ;) but he's around enough that he feels like a legitimate member of the team. And I know I've said it before, but for all I hate some of the decisions and episodes they've made during his tenure (Mother's Day stupidity, killing Jackie, etc), I love the way they developed Vance's relationship with Gibbs and by extension the whole team.

I never even knew Dead Air was considered controversial before the first time I stumbled on a "fixit" story (the fix being that Poor Woobie Tony got mangled in some way, Evil McGee and Heartless Ziva got sent off (possibly to Guantanamo?) and White Knight Gibbs saved Tony and the day). It never for a second occurred to me when I watched they might've actually turned the radio off, rather than just having Tony in the background, and the first time I stumbled across said fixit fic, I had to go and rewatch the episode to see what they were talking about, because that's how little impact it made on me that they said they'd stopped listening :rofl:

I agree, Jeanne came off a bit of a wet hen, and also a little manipulative (the NCIS writers are way too fond of manipulative women), although she did have all my sympathy in terms of being royally duped. Tony didn't exactly get out of it unscathed, but at least he knew what was going on, and any happy ending dreams were self-delusion, not someone he loved deliberately deceiving him. And her only crime was being born to her father - she didn't appear to be aware who Daddy Dearest really was. She really got shafted.

I work on the principle that entertainment is always going to be more important than realism on TV, but yeah, Tony doing deep cover in his spare time is one of the more ludicrous handwaves they've done. Like being deep cover is his hobby or something, it's sort of hilarious.

(Which is also part of what makes me laugh when people scream lack of realism over other things. Usually people only complain about it when they don't like the character for whom the rules are being bent, so I've noticed...)

There have been some wonderfully entertaining episodes (which tbh is what I want, anything else is icing - I'm not expecting Shakespeare ;)) in more recent seasons, but like I say... pick and mix. S10 is a classic, some of the individual episodes are great (Phoenix, Devil's Trifecta, Detour), but the season taken as a whole is a dreary affair. There are several episodes (mostly Bodnar related) I haven't watched since the first time I sat through them, because they were so dull and poorly thought out, and I kept getting bashed in the head by low-flying Tiva anvils. (I did enjoy seeing baby!Ziva, but the stuff surrounding those moments was just cringe-making.) And I tend to agree with Chels that some of the episodes are very silly but I tend to take them as such. I'm not always convinced that the writers intended them to be so ridiculous, but... ;) :rofl:

Oh, and there's no doubt in my mind that some of the fanwriters out there could write circles around some of the show writers! Even taking into account that fanwriters by definition don't face casting or budgetary restrictions, I still think that!

___________________________
Words in this post: 1117
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:13 pm 
Offline
Deputy Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm
Posts: 49685
Location: Ziva's bed
Title: Mistress of McGiva
Name: Sherry
Gender: Female
I started reading this thread this morning & then was like, I don't have enough time to read this all before I go to work what am I doing, so I finished it tonight. (I don't know why I shared that, but sure. LOL) And I think there are some interesting points made in the original post. I tend to ship het pairings as my main pairing, but with NCIS it's shifted to slash because, like you said, the relationships between the men are more interesting because they're actually written as fairly 3-dimensional characters. Like, Gibbs and Vance. Even if you just want to write gen fics about them (which I have no problem with), there are just so many layers there to unpack, so I really feel like I'm challenging myself as a writer by writing fics about them because there is so much there to work with. Does that make sense? They feel like real people because they're fleshed out more than some of the other characters (though I do think we could learn even more about Vance - with what we know about his past, he is a very interesting character & I think that deserves to be explored more), so that makes me more interested in them as a writer because I like writing introspective character-driven things. I feel like writing slash or the more male character focused fics for NCIS has made my writing better, but maybe that's just experience, too.

Random comment about Dead Air - I wrote a Dead Air tag that was completely unrelated to the whole shutting the radio off thing & as far as my episode tags go, it's one of the most reviewed and favorited ones I've written. I just think that's really funny, for as much as people whine about that episode. And it's McGiva (of course). I just looked & unless I'm missing another one, there's only one other episode tag that has more favorites than that one. So that amuses me.

I agree about character bashing, too. I find it extremely lazy because most people are just doing it because a character is interfering in their preferred pairing (and I've seen plenty of it done with pairings I like, so it's not relegated to any particular pairing OR fandom because I see a lot of it reading Doctor Who fic, too :P) & so they have to make them look bad/be evil so their fave pairing can end up together. Like, if that's the only way you can think to have your pairing together, then you probably aren't a very good writer, sorry. But that's just my take on it.

___________________________
Words in this post: 452
_______________________
Avatar made by McMhuirich! Thank you, Linda! :-*

Latest story:
Someone Who Understands (FR13, Gibbs & Fornell friendship)

and

The Only Answer (FR13, fluffy McGiva)[/center]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:55 pm 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
smackalicious wrote:
I agree about character bashing, too. I find it extremely lazy because most people are just doing it because a character is interfering in their preferred pairing (and I've seen plenty of it done with pairings I like, so it's not relegated to any particular pairing OR fandom because I see a lot of it reading Doctor Who fic, too :P) & so they have to make them look bad/be evil so their fave pairing can end up together. Like, if that's the only way you can think to have your pairing together, then you probably aren't a very good writer, sorry. But that's just my take on it.

ALL OF THIS. It is often because either they're trying to get a character out of the way, which is lazy writing, or because they ship X and Z because they dislike Y, which is just a stupid reason to ship a pairing. Either way, it is really boring to me and, IMO, poor writing.

___________________________
Words in this post: 172
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:58 pm 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
i think a large part of the issues with the series is that it still has the same mental attitudes that were prevalent in the 1950s. They're papered over b/c women hold jobs and look 'modern' but they are drawn with the casual contempt of the power structure that doesn't consider them. At all. It's not a hostile culture. It's an entirely indifferent culture.

Women should be decorative, silent, obedient and available for sex and mothering.

And women in any position of power are therefore automatically impure and suspect and if you're writing those women, you will not have any insight into their modern realities. Because 'you' have no imagination of them having roles outside of the traditional roles of the 1950s.

This was almost OK in Magnum PI days, but not so much in a woman almost became president days... and I dare say a not so small part of why she was hated so much had everything to do with her not being male.

Dress her in a penis and a man's suit and she would have been the best prepared, smartest, most qualified candidate for president in 50 years, maybe ever. and no, i don't like her personality... but i think a large part of her issues with personality is that she *thinks like a man but is forced to not behave like one. *(for lack of a better expression - she actually thinks like someone with 110% confidence in her own agency and authority, which should not be a 'male' thing, but still is) But from the time she had the 'baking cookies' mishap she realized that she would be forced to act like a 'woman'... thus she is forced to not act like she thinks... so she is rendered schizophrenic. Bill's attempts to use her to do actual policy work were a powerful insight into his understanding of her abilities and comfort with them, and his lack of insight into the country's perception of a woman with that much agency...

Anyway, to get away from politics... the show was not created with a space for women.

They were added later as decoration to meet the 'requirements of the 21st century' and added resentfully (though they don't even know they are resentful). So we get harridans, whores and neurotics. I wonder how they'll ruin the senator?

edit: Sorry, hope this doesn't come off too harsh. Harsh enough, but not too harsh... :sigh:

___________________________
Words in this post: 414

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
DeepBlueJoy wrote:
Anyway, to get away from politics... the show was not created with a space for women.

They were added later as decoration to meet the 'requirements of the 21st century' and added resentfully (though they don't even know they are resentful). So we get harridans, whores and neurotics. I wonder how they'll ruin the senator?

edit: Sorry, hope this doesn't come off too harsh. Harsh enough, but not too harsh... :sigh:


Accurate statement is accurate. I definitely feel women are deeply resented on this show and it started with Kate. At its roots, it's become a show about mommy and daddy issues, mostly daddy, and how much mom was resented for things she did because have we heard that much good about any of their mothers? There's a token mention that Tony's mom loved him when she was sober and I can't even remember what positive items were said about Gibbs' mother.

I can relate to the daddy issues, and even to the mommy issues, to a certain extent but killing all the female stereotypes to satisfy deep-seated psychological issues with parents just seems bordering on a little psychotic. I actually like exploring daddy issues because that's one of the ways I relate to Tony but they could've done it much more interesting without killing the female characters.

I could've seen it if Jackie got wounded during that shooting. That would've made sense actually given how the bullets were flying, but killed? Unnecessary and dull. I felt for Vance, of course, he acted the part of grieving husband, but it was all a vehicle for Ziva's father getting killed and her seeking revenge, which also never really held true to me. Given what that man had put her through, I can't see her being that broken up. Grieve? Sure. Revenge? No.

I really need to write a Ziva story. She deserves some love in stories given how much she's bashed left and right. I'll think on that.

___________________________
Words in this post: 335
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:05 am 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
I'm no huge fan of HRC (nor of most politicians, but the American ones scare me a hell of a lot more than the Brits!), but I agree with your assessment of her abilities, confidence and experience, Blue. An awful lot of the criticism levelled at her, when you scrape off the surface, boils down to her gender.

PhoenixRising wrote:
I felt for Vance, of course, he acted the part of grieving husband, but it was all a vehicle for Ziva's father getting killed and her seeking revenge

That's the issue, really - it was a vehicle for drama that spoiled a lot of character development for Ziva, not a good storytelling decision. I will always think Rocky Carroll knocks "grieving widower" out of the park, but I would rather he had not had to.

I can see Ziva grieving deeply - just because someone uses and abuses you doesn't mean you might not deeply grieve over their death, and human beings are irrational. A Ziva who was prone to vengeance I can see avenging her father, even after how appallingly she was treated by him. In some ways, the very fact of their estrangement and how their last conversation was antagonistic could make it more painful, not less, depending on the personality of the person bereaved.

My problem with the revenge storyline is not so much with her grief and anger being unrealistic, but how it rewound so much character development and turned her into a two-dimensional vengeance monkey, which doesn't ring true to who she was at that point, regardless of her relationship with her father. The show has been... patchy, shall we say, in writing women in a 3D manner, but they had given Ziva some nuance beyond Mossad killing machine, and I think it was stupid storytelling to wreck that storytelling. That was what didn't add up, to me. Not that Ziva wouldn't grieve her dad, not that Ziva wasn't capable of vengeance on some level, but that S10 Ziva wasn't, IMO, that person any more. It did a massive disservice to her character growth to turn her into this cartoonish, vengeance at all costs piece of work, and worse that they did so over her mostly estranged father.

With the obvious exception of the Ziva-bashers (who really need to get over themselves IMO), I think fandom is kinder to Ziva David than the writers.

(I think it actually is almost sadder than if it had been deliberate, but I strongly suspect that the unsympathetic treatment of women is not deliberate. I don't think they sat down and said "Let's undo all of Ziva's character development!" or "Let's make Jenny an example of how not to be an agency director, and while we are at it, let's define her in terms of her relationship with Gibbs!" Its symptomatic of an inability to see women as whole people apart from their relationships with male characters. Equally sadly, NCIS is not even the worst culprit - hell, it's not even the worst culprit in the JAG-verse. The way H50 treated Kono made me want to throw things at my TV :()

Aside: Regarding good Ziva stories (and good Kate stories for that matter), I want to big up my friend's Kate/Ziva miniseries, Beautiful Permanence.

Regarding Jackie: I hate that that was explained as "Collateral damage happens." Yes, it does happen, sure, but when you're writing something fictional, you made that choice. It's one thing when an actor wants to go out in a blaze of glory, which I can completely understand (much more interesting to play, I think), but to actively choose to kill a WOC who was half of one of the few happy relationships on the show... that's a choice, and it's a pretty gross one, and they should own it instead of talking about collateral damage like Jackie just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

___________________________
Words in this post: 661
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:39 am 
Offline
Deputy Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm
Posts: 49685
Location: Ziva's bed
Title: Mistress of McGiva
Name: Sherry
Gender: Female
Ugh, yes, everything you said about Ziva's character regression after her father was killed. I feel like it makes sense that she would be devastated because he was her last living family member and because he was her father, even though he wasn't the best father in the world, but revenge? That seems a bit much. Maybe she just reverted back to her Mossad training because that felt "safe" to her - she could be unemotional or at least not vulnerable. Grieving always feels like the single most vulnerable emotion because you don't feel in control of it. It can hit you at any time and that's scary, especially if you have a hard time expressing your emotions. And Ziva had already lost so much that maybe she felt like she had nothing left to lose, so why not? (I hate that I was like, "Character regression!" and then ended up coming up with a plausible reason why she did what she did. Not that I think their thinking was quite that deep, but it's like, if you look hard enough, you can make sense of it. :P)

But that story took up so much of the second half of that season that it feels like that was a way to not have to think of other storylines and THAT is lazy writing. I mean, I love this show & I think some of the writers are fantastic, but they have definitely made some bad decisions over the years.

___________________________
Words in this post: 257
_______________________
Avatar made by McMhuirich! Thank you, Linda! :-*

Latest story:
Someone Who Understands (FR13, Gibbs & Fornell friendship)

and

The Only Answer (FR13, fluffy McGiva)[/center]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:44 am 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
smackalicious wrote:
Not that I think their thinking was quite that deep, but it's like, if you look hard enough, you can make sense of it.

I'm pretty sure fanwriters are better thinking up reasons for how things happened than the actual showwriters, tbh :rolleyes: But yeah, it really shouldn't fall to us to seek out rationalisations for why they have wrecked her character development :no:

The only way I can enjoy S10 is if I basically skip Bodnar :rolleyes: Some of the individual episodes = excellent, the season as a whole is one of my least favourites. It got really, really boring. I was actually amazed, the first time I just went "Oh, screw this, I'm skipping these episodes," how much more enjoyable it was.

(I do usually watch Hereafter because Rocky Carroll was so good in that.)

___________________________
Words in this post: 163
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Last edited by flootzavut on Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:26 pm 
Offline
Deputy Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm
Posts: 49685
Location: Ziva's bed
Title: Mistress of McGiva
Name: Sherry
Gender: Female
But if you skip Bodnar altogether, you miss Ducky's Super Sass with his line about who's your grandmother, or whatever it was (sue me, I'm bad at remembering exact quotes unless it's an episode I've seen a million times). ;D

___________________________
Words in this post: 48
_______________________
Avatar made by McMhuirich! Thank you, Linda! :-*

Latest story:
Someone Who Understands (FR13, Gibbs & Fornell friendship)

and

The Only Answer (FR13, fluffy McGiva)[/center]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:19 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 68921
Location: Usually in bed with Gibbs
Title: Gibbs' Gal forever
Name: Patsy
Aliases: pattywatty
Gender: Female
link: My Author Board
link: My Fanfic.net
Flag: Image
smackalicious wrote:
But if you skip Bodnar altogether, you miss Ducky's Super Sass with his line about who's your grandmother, or whatever it was (sue me, I'm bad at remembering exact quotes unless it's an episode I've seen a million times). ;D

now you got me wondering who he said it to or what. What episode and I can google

___________________________
Words in this post: 66
_______________________
Image]
ImageImageImage

sig by McMhuirich thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:58 pm 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
Haha, that is a pretty awesome line. Maybe I should fast forward to the good bits...

___________________________
Words in this post: 16
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:02 pm 
Offline
Deputy Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm
Posts: 49685
Location: Ziva's bed
Title: Mistress of McGiva
Name: Sherry
Gender: Female
It's when Bodnar first shows up at NCIS. It's in the episode "Shiva," so you've probably seen it. The only people in the bullpen are Ducky, Palmer & Abby, I think, and Bodnar's looking for Gibbs, I want to say? Ducky says something to him & Bodnar is all irritated and asks, "And whose grandfather are you?" And Ducky responds, "That depends. Who's your grandmother?" Just ultimate sassmaster.

___________________________
Words in this post: 68
_______________________
Avatar made by McMhuirich! Thank you, Linda! :-*

Latest story:
Someone Who Understands (FR13, Gibbs & Fornell friendship)

and

The Only Answer (FR13, fluffy McGiva)[/center]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:14 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
LOL! Ducky can be full of piss and vinegar when he wants to be!

___________________________
Words in this post: 14
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:15 am 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
I remember that - probably the most memorable moment of the whole Bodnar fiasco :rofl: Good ol' Duckster!

___________________________
Words in this post: 30
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:08 am 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 68921
Location: Usually in bed with Gibbs
Title: Gibbs' Gal forever
Name: Patsy
Aliases: pattywatty
Gender: Female
link: My Author Board
link: My Fanfic.net
Flag: Image
smackalicious wrote:
It's when Bodnar first shows up at NCIS. It's in the episode "Shiva," so you've probably seen it. The only people in the bullpen are Ducky, Palmer & Abby, I think, and Bodnar's looking for Gibbs, I want to say? Ducky says something to him & Bodnar is all irritated and asks, "And whose grandfather are you?" And Ducky responds, "That depends. Who's your grandmother?" Just ultimate sassmaster.

nope don't remember that line will need to look discs out and review LOL

___________________________
Words in this post: 82
_______________________
Image]
ImageImageImage

sig by McMhuirich thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:31 pm 
Offline
Probie

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:02 pm
Posts: 26
Gender: Female
link: My Fanfictions
Wow, and I thought I'm always overthinking NCIS and it's contents but this is going way deep.
I'm with you on a whole lot of aspects but sometimes I don't really know why some writers are still watching or liking the show if all they do is critizise?
I mean, I think it is interesting if you explore some what ifs in case of things like really turning off the mic in dead air (I didn't realize that either when watching, fanfictions brought me into that idea) or when Gibbs let Joanne get away with murder. But this is a tv show and sometimes, a series cannot work like reality would or it would be extremely boring. I don't believe for a second that any law enforcement agency would either solve cases like that in one week tops nor that they would hire some of these lunatics that the MRCT is made off. They all have character flaws and nearly all of them have suffered mental breakdowns.
But we don't want to watch months of therapy for either member, we want some action and we also want (at least I do, I'm just that kind of evil person) whump of my favorite characters. Cases that are only cases with no personal connection and no danger for any team member are just totally boring. Sure, the forensic aspect is nice, but that's about it.

What you say about the portraying of women, I agree. It took me some time, because here in Germany we are really different from that, we already have a women as our leader for eight years, maybe till another full period, this we will see in september this year when elections are due. And while I'm not her biggest fan, she is well respected in the world. Britian is similar to that, too.

I also like very good stories in general and then it's not that important what kind of shipping is in it. Mostly I prefer gen as a genre, because there is so much more to tell about then just love stories. Also, I do not really have any good pairing on the show that I like. Okay, McGee and Delilah seem to work out, I also wouldn't have had anything against Bishop and Jacob but when it get's difficult, one cheats and it's over.
I also do not really like OCs so there goes the possibility of a love interest for Gibbs or Tony. Zoe would have been great and I couldn't understand why they broke it up till I saw the finale of season 13. Still, Tali could have been raised by Tony and Zoe as a couple, this was just a waste of a good romance.
Jeanne and Tony would be my favorite because I think they could have worked out had they met under different circumstances and it pained me that they didn't give them the third chance when she came back in season 13.

Some may think that I am bashing some characters because I have written two stories where I am not exactly portraying Ziva as the nicest girl in town. But I just tried to take some scenes in the original series further than what they went in the original and told the consequences of that. Is it really bashing if the show itself shows some very stupid things the character did or does?
Is putting Gibbs in jail for commiting murder really bashing for example?

___________________________
Words in this post: 578

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:50 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
Belial wrote:
Wow, and I thought I'm always overthinking NCIS and it's contents but this is going way deep.

I'm with you on a whole lot of aspects but sometimes I don't really know why some writers are still watching or liking the show if all they do is critizise?


That's a really good question and I'll gladly answer it because I am EXTREMELY critical of it. I probably should give up NCIS fanfic completely. I've even wanted to at times, but I haven't been able to. It's not for a lack of trying. I stopped frequenting this forum for a while because I wanted to quit, but I couldn't do it. I even delved into other hobbies and interests in an effort to quit. That didn't work either. NCIS fanfic is still very much an obsession, worse than any drug I could take. There are so many times I've wondered, 'Why am I still writing fanfic for this show when I don't even watch it anymore?'

It comes down to the fact that the characters are still playing together in my head. I get dozens and dozens of scenarios in my head involving them every day. Mainly, the scenes that play over and over end up on paper, the rest fade away. Some I've come back to and revisited, others not so much. You'd think the scenes in my head would end up in posted stories, right? Nope. Almost all the stories I've posted were all ones I hadn't persevered on. I think 'Grounded' is the only one that I truly persevered on that made it to the internet. A lot of them were inspired from dreams or just a thought in my head without a significant amount of mental gymnastics and pretty much wrote themselves. Even 'Grounded' was mostly by inspiration. I had started it, shelved it for a while. Then one morning I had a dream and when I sat down to my computer after my morning routine, I wrote the rest of it in a few hours based on the dream I had. I don't even remember the dream anymore. I'd forgotten it by the time I finished writing the story.

I still adore them even though I don't like what the show writers and producers have done to them at times. I mainly blame the writers and producers.

Eventually though, my obsession will ebb and I will move on for good, I just don't know when or what will cause me to let go of the obsession.

___________________________
Words in this post: 420
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:48 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
I think there's a difference between license to make it possible to tell the story in a weekly one-hour drama, e.g. Norfolk being like 5 minutes away when it's really more like 4 hours or DNA results coming in a single day rather than months, vs. telling a horrible story that completely betrays the characters that have been created, e.g. Gibbs letting his MIL get away with cold-blooded murder, Ziva being so overcome by her life being in danger that she almost self-destructs, Abby being borderline schizophrenic for a single episode, etc. If the story being told requires changing the characters so that they're completely unlikable and/or unrecognizable, then, that's not good writing. It just isn't, and I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out. It's the same reason I don't bother reading stories that state that the characters are OOC. I think that's ridiculous. If you're not going to write the characters as they are (or potentially could be given certain circumstances), then, all you're doing is writing an original story and putting familiar names in it.

I don't watch the show anymore. I got sick of the melodrama and the things done to try to create unnecessary drama. It started with the, in my opinion, bizarre choice to have Gibbs not verify that the Russian guy was dead in the season premiere (was that season 10? Or season 11?), especially when they literally drove right by the guy on the road. And from there, it was on shaky ground from my perspective until they killed off Jackie Vance. Then, I was done. And it wasn't because she's a woman. It wasn't because she's black. I don't care about those things in TV. I cared because NCIS is terrible at letting people be happy. Here we have a wonderful family: Leon, Jackie and the two kids. They're typical in a lot of ways and instead of letting that continue, they chose to destroy it or at least come as close as they could to destroying it. In fact, when Stan Burley showed up (yea!) and mentioned that he was getting married, I thought, Oh no! He's dead! because I couldn't imagine them letting him survive when he was happily settling down.

So I don't watch the show anymore, but the characters created are good characters and I love writing stories that feature them. So I'll continue writing fanfic until I run out of ideas for them, but I haven't watched a minute of the show itself in two years. So I know nothing about the new characters added. I know that Tony left, but I just ignore what I don't care for and include what I do. :)

___________________________
Words in this post: 459
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:40 pm 
Offline
Intel Analyst
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 3285
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Name: Shay
Gender: Female
link: Dreamwidth Journal
Enthusiastic Fish wrote:
So I don't watch the show anymore, but the characters created are good characters and I love writing stories that feature them. So I'll continue writing fanfic until I run out of ideas for them, but I haven't watched a minute of the show itself in two years. So I know nothing about the new characters added. I know that Tony left, but I just ignore what I don't care for and include what I do. :)


Yeah, this. Teri just said it better than I did. ;D

___________________________
Words in this post: 106
_______________________
Creativity is a sort of divination.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:17 pm 
Offline
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 52863
Location: Here and there. Everywhere and nowhere.
Title: DOCTOR!
Aliases: Scurvy Gums Ramona
Gender: Female
;D

___________________________
Words in this post: 9
_______________________
Image
Click for the story!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:35 pm 
Offline
Director's Secretary
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:51 pm
Posts: 2284
Name: Blue
link: Blue's Stories
link: Blue's AO3
I watch. partly inertia. partly I love the characters (the male ones, at any rate. the female ones either disappoint me, or they kill them or both).

At this point, NCIS is a guilty pleasure. And after how NCIS LA and NO ended this season, I think they're moving in that direction too. The writing was better and the female characters more developed. But then they turned Dwayne Pride into the shark from Jaws (NCIS NO), and they killed off yet another strong black woman character (and again brought her back to do it) - just like they did with Jackie Vance. The only other strong, intact marriage left in the entire franchise, destroyed for ratings. Or drama, or some other stupid nonsense.


I don't think that insane illogical vendettas are great writing -- even if you're chasing a bad guy. Throwing your career into the gulf instead of doing sane police work... that is idiotic. Where do they go after they've gone too far?

How many widowers does this franchise need? The NCIS franchise has a dead wife problem. If you're a wife or have been one, you will eventually become expendable so we can have more manpain.

As much as I love the male characters, it's hard to not get annoyed by the endless drama.

___________________________
Words in this post: 217

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:22 am 
Offline
Team Leader

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 18424
Location: UK
Title: Kibbs Addict
Name: Sarah
Aliases: sarahflute, sarah-flute, Floot, tiggrie, kassipoeg
Gender: Female
link: fanfiction.net
link: AO3
link: NFA storyboard
Liking/enjoying media =/= thinking it's above criticism.

I watch for two reasons - entertainment and because I love the characters. If either one of those changes (and entertainment wise, there are times when that's really gone down the toilet) then I may stop watching. If both those things change, then I almost certainly will stop watching, as many people here have.

In the meantime, I watch for those two reasons, and I write because I see things I want to fix, or characters I wanted more of, or I see the road not taken and wonder "What if?" or - and this is the big one - simply because I have a story idea bouncing around in my head that I just. can't. shut. up. any other way than sitting down and writing it. I write as much as anything because I can't not write. It's part of what keeps me sane, not just in relation to NCIS and its many faults, but in general. I doubt I will stop loving the characters out of nowhere, and as long as I love the characters and have story ideas for them, I will continue to write for the show. (I mean, well over half of my posted stories feature a character who's been canonically dead for over a decade. If shooting her in the head didn't stop me writing her... Canon, as far as I'm concerned, is a pick and mix when it comes to writing. Sometimes I stick to it like glue, other times I merrily take what I want and throw the rest away without a second glance. It's just a starting point. So ignoring or changing or fixing poor writing kinda goes along with that.)

Honestly, I think NCIS's faults are part of what makes it a fanwriter's dream. Shows that are flawless or close to it are hard to write for; if everything happened on screen in a way that was satisfying, that didn't need explanation, that stayed in character and made sense and was logical and didn't leave gaping plot holes and had satisfying relationships between the characters... well, sure, you can still write fanfic, but it's not gonna beg for fanfic the same way. When shows are flawed but have great characters? That's fertile ground. Anyone who's a storyteller is gonna be all over that like a rash. Those flaws are one of the reasons it is fanfic rich.

(All the media I've written for multiple times have this in common to some degree. Either things are hinted at that aren't spelled out, or favourite characters are treated poorly, or there's a logic gap somewhere... It gives me itchy fingers, it makes me want to write. If a show is ultimately satisfying in and of itself, and presents me with no loose ends, I'm far less likely to write stories in it. That's not me saying "I won't write fanfic for show X because there are no gaps into which I can slip stories," that's me saying I usually don't get ideas for stories if the show and the storytelling don't leave places that make me want to fill them in.)

But anyway... liking, enjoying, even loving something doesn't mean it or its creators are above criticism.

NCIS has issues with its treatment of female characters... is that really even a debate? They are really, really good at mangst, at using female characters to give drama and pain to the male characters rather than as people in their own right, and that gets tiresome. It would be nice to see female characters being used in a more original way than to cause manpain, no? Fanwriters fill that void. And given the male characters are generally more developed and given more substance, but the show is unlikely to put any of them in MM pairings, fanwriters are gonna come along and do something about that, too. The gaps, the flaws, the problems NCIS has are part of what make it so damn appealing to write fanfic for, so it's natural, tbh, that storytellers will both see its flaws and will attempt to fix them. Those things are linked :)

___________________________
Words in this post: 701
_______________________
Lie to NCIS (banner returning asap!)

"Sarah, I think your autocorrect is weirder than you are." (Xiexie, Xiexie! :lol2:)

GNU Terry Pratchett


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group