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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Honestly "It's magic" generally works better for most of these kinds of things, IMO, than trying to make some kind of science with the magic - and that's obviously why mpreg generally works better in magical fandoms. Because yeah, no, please don't have the poor baby coming out of the poor guy's backside, that's just nasty on multiple levels...

I can think of two examples I've come across (outside of the mpreg scenario) where a writer has attempted to make magic make sense scientifically, and both times it just would've worked so much better to say "It's magic!" One was SMeyer in the Twilight books, where she attempts to apply some (one assumes) high school biology and starts talking about chromosomes and such whilst painfully obviously having not the slightest idea how chromosomes work, and the other was the (possibly even worse, terrifying, I know) Starcrossed by Josephine Angelini, where a couple of characters are essentially descendents of Greek gods and can fly, but instead of saying "It's magic!" she tries to explain it by talking about them manipulating the air flow and stuff. In both cases, sadly not nearly the worst thing in the book, but also both didn't work at all, just sounded like exactly what it was - poorly thought out pseudo-science put together by someone who had no idea what they were doing.

Mpreg is still one of my least favourite tropes.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Apart from gross and weird, I think my biggest issue with it is that it seems so unnecessary... And kind of emasculating too. And before you get upset... I don't think pregnancy is emasculating or that it makes a woman weak. But... women *choose* pregnancy. Usually, the man has it thrust upon him, and there's an ugly name for that! Even if it's magic, it's a violation. And since the body doesn't have the architecture for the process, it means that instead of being risky as all pregnancy is (it's still a significant cause of death of younger women), it becomes health and life threatening. In the service of what, exactly? Is it not enough for a man to be a man? He has to be both man and woman? I just DON'T get it. Why, why why?

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:38 am 
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Frankly, it isn't something I "get", but generally speaking I don't like to say something is automatically bad or wrong, because it depends enormously on how it's handled, and mpreg is no different from anything else in this regard. Done well, there are interesting possibilities, done poorly (as it so often is) it's just a train wreck. (Also, to be honest, I see things that should be slam dunks spoiled by poor writing all the time, I don't think mpreg is unique in that regard :-/)

Regarding it being a violation - frankly, I would tend to agree, and I get on much better with a story if no one pretends it's not. I find pregnancy stories in general have a problem with acting like pregnancy is automatically a Good Thing, and that is even more problematic with mpreg where it's not, typically, like the person being pregnant was planning that or expecting it. That said, IF it's handled well, that can also be part of what makes it interesting. I recall a Spuffy story where the Initiative implanted a baby girl into Spike in hopes that gestating inside a vampire would influence the child to develop as a Potential, and if memory serves, no one pretended that it wasn't a violation; and in that fandom that bumps up to all kinds of questions about personhood, for example, given how the characters tend to think that soulless vampires are not real people. So if Spike is not, according to them, a real person, can he be violated? And on the other side of the coin, if Spike feels violated and those around him instinctively see it as a violation, doesn't that mean they consider Spike a person on some level, however much they reject the notion?

Even with straightforward MF pregnancy, it can be handled incredibly badly, I recall reading a story where Gibbs and Kate got drunk, had unprotected sex, and Kate ends up pregnant, and like... practically the next chapter, they're all lovey dovey and she's picking out baby clothes. I'm like... okay, these people both have incredibly dangerous jobs, which you're failing to deal with, and this baby was conceived when they were both drunk, from which you have absolutely zero fallout or repercussions... whut. Seriously.

So yeah, I think a lot of pregnancy stories fall down in this regard, and while babyfics are never going to be my thing, I really appreciate when writers don't pretend fa-la-la, this unexpected baby is all sweetness and light and no one is worried or uncertain about it, everyone is thrilled, and it isn't going to completely turn people's lives upside down.

... now I think about it, that's probably my biggest beef with babyfics in general. Some people do tackle this stuff, but an awful lot just don't. If it's a planned pregnancy that everyone wants, that's one thing, but most babyfics are not that, and yet the characters frequently act like it's the best thing ever, when for people in that line of work, it's at least going to be confusing and bring up a lot of uncertainties and questions. A lot of my issues with mpreg are just extensions of my issues with babyfics in general, with an added ewwwwww factor because of, ya know, basic biology...

(I have to say I never finished it because a babyfic with a pairing that isn't my OTP is low down on my list of priorities :blush: but Sherry's The Tower, as I recall, didn't pretend that the pregnancy was the Most Wonderful Thing That Has Ever Happened, which I really appreciated.)

I'm sure there are other ways to explore the same issues, and frankly yeah, pregnancy in a story (regardless of flavour) is not something I go looking for and is more likely something I'll actively avoid, but I also do my best not to outright say "This thing is automatically bad/automatically poor writing." Even if, as in this case, it totally isn't my thing and I typically don't read it at all :confusion-shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:33 pm 
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I'm prepared to call Mpreg bad in 99.999% of cases because it almost always represents a failure of imagination and I have little use for that. Unless you're cursing someone magically, I can't see it as a viable idea for a good story.

Other than living in a world where this is for some reason the norm, there are more interesting ways to create children in a fic even if you only have two men, or to throw a character's life into chaos. I tend to start fics that seem promising, and as soon as the mpreg puts in its appearance, I end up abandoning the story.

Humor is usually the only exception to 'universally bad' for such fics. Maybe horror might work. Don't know, not really big on horror. Having an alien being explode from your body seems like a singularly miserable way to die and/or kill your kid if some how it manages not to be something inhuman!

Maybe it's I who lack imagination? Or maybe I've just seen it done badly too many times since my primary fandoms are ones where magic is par for the course and strange stuff happens all the time. I mean, in Buffy, vampires fall for humans and go off to fight for their souls back in order to be worthy for the woman who saves the world... but that is believable compared to mpreg. At least, to me.

Maybe i just find it oogie?

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:53 am 
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Like I say, in my experience, whether a given idea, premise or trope is good depends way too much on how well it's handled for me to make broad-strokes declarations about such and such a thing being bad. I do think that certain things are more likely to be bad because 1) they're mostly handled poorly and 2) they're often popular with people who simply don't have the chops to do it well. Mpreg definitely fits into that category, but then (in my experience) so do self-insert fics (and those which aren't overtly self-inserts, but where the "original character" is original only insofar as they are the writer with all the writer's faults softened!), many crossovers, pregnancy/baby stories in general (there are some truly excellent ones out there, but there are so, so many truly awful ones), and a whole host of other things. These are things which in my experience have a really high proportion of chaff to wheat, but I also know that in most cases, the wheat is out there for those who care to look.

That said, I still don't like mpreg, in fact I actively dislike it, it's still one of my least favourite tropes, and if it comes up in a story or is the main thrust of a story then I will either only be reading it in the first place/will continue reading because I got a strong recommendation OR because I am heavily invested in the story and am therefore willing to give the writer a chance to convince me. I have read a small handful that fit in the 'wheat' category, but it's never gonna be my favourite thing or something I go looking for, and I liked those stories despite the mpreg, not because of it. I do find it oogie, and that's okay too (we are allowed to just go ewwwww no, and not read), but that doesn't mean I can dismiss that other people love it with the assumption they have no taste. (There are plenty of things I find more ewww-inducing. If you held a gun to my head and made me choose, I would pick weird and icky mpreg over (to me) gross and disturbing scat-play any day of the week.)

Basically, I also dislike (and find inaccurate) the practice of saying a given trope or premise or <insert possibility here> is in and of itself good or bad, because in my experience, it just isn't true. And like I say, I have seen people take tropes that I absolutely adore and make a complete hash of them. (Hell, I've seen people do that with my absolute favourite pairings and absolute favourite tropes. It is baffling sometimes how people manage to make such a mess in that case, but it's shockingly possible to screw up a really promising combination.) I have also seen people take tropes I intensely dislike and make me go "... oh. Okay." I do my best (not always successfully, but I try) to judge a given story on its merits, not on its basic premise.

Maybe there are combinations of trope/pairing/whatever out there that are honestly truly impossible to do well. (I'm thinking I'd be dubious about, say, Vance/Palmer mpreg, for example, regardless of who wrote it! :th_uhoh2: :rofl:) But although I dislike mpreg and will typically avoid it like the plague, I'm unwilling to outright condemn it as inherently bad just 'cause I don't like it, because in my experience, that sweeping statement just isn't true.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:33 am 
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Well, now I feel obligated to write some Pance mpreg, just to prove you wrong! :lol2: No, I'm totally kidding because my mind is boggled just thinking about that. (But Palmer would totally be the one who would be pregnant, let's be real.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:22 am 
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Ugh! That thought just gave me the heebie-jeebies, Sherry. Just...no. Jimmy is fairly ripped under his shirt and I can't picture him pregnant any more than I can picture Vance pregnant. Just the whole thing is a big nope for me. Unless it's some weird science-fiction-y type world, I just can't imagine male mammals giving birth. The biology of making that even plausible is just beyond me. Nope, there's a reason women do the baby thing and a reason men don't. I'm okay with our differences. More than okay with them. I don't need the basic natures of men and women to change.

That said, I don't even like reading stories about women being pregnant because I'm completely not interested in the whole motherhood thing. And besides, pregnant women are always stereotyped as having weird cravings and being emotional and shrewish when pregnant and that just ticks me off. My sister has been pregnant three times and she wasn't like that at all and yet in TV, movies, even fanfic, anytime pregnancy is written about, the stupid stereotypes seem to be included and it's annoying as hell. If you must write about a woman being 7 or 8 months pregnant, at least let her have some dignity and not be a total shrew. Women at that time frame are often uncomfortable, maybe a little grouchy, but who wouldn't be under the circumstances? Carrying an almost-full-term baby can't be easy under the best of circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:51 am 
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Yup, i hate caricatures too, Phoenix and anything that makes women look ridiculous and emotionally out of control, especially as a class makes me furious!

I will also go on record as being utterly and mercilessly judgmental when it comes to self-inserts and mpreg, sorry, Sarah! :kisscheek: Forgive me please, luv? I'm usually open-minded, but for those two things, I've zero patience. And yes, I remember seeing Giles (from Buffy) pregnant done tolerably well somewhere once, but I still think it's an idiot idea that is unnecessary and thoughts of it make me want to HEAVE. Even when the lovely folk on Star Trek did it to that lovely hot guy Tucker, I was unimpressed. It played it for humor which relied on the same tired gender stereotypes we really don't need to rehash.

I've seen almost everything else done well. Truly original characters? Absolutely. Pregnancy fics without the idiocy, yes, even though I'm not really into pregnancy or baby fic. Most crazy ideas can be made to work if you've the talent. And of course, lovely ideas can be crap in the wrong hands.

Truly, though I find explicit sex m/m, m/f, f/f and very occasionally other permutations quite a turn on, I also find about 95% of explicit sex hackneyed and poorly done and it's even worse for same sex pairings written by the opposite sex, but I will not say that sex writing is bad because it can be (and frequently is) very hot. The truth is that most fanfic is bad. There are archives with standards that shield us for that... Then of course, there's places like the pit.

The truth is that most writing is bad, much is barely adequate. The stuff that sells forever and ever is what survives after the dross burns off. Do we remember Dante's contemporaries? I'm gonna strive to write at least on thing people will remember... and no, it will NOT contain Mpreg! 8-) :P :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:35 pm 
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I just don't get "mpreg." Not at all. Never have. Maybe in a story where a character is trans* or something, but... What? There is nothing more disappointing than reading a summary that sounds really good and then discovering that it's mpreg. Ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:59 am 
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I don't like mpreg; like I say, I just don't think it's really fair or accurate to write it off as uniformly bad. It's not something I go looking for or even usually read, I've probably read half a dozen mpreg stories ever, so I'm not advocating for it - if all the mpreg stories on the 'net disappeared tomorrow, I cannot think of a single one I'd think "Oh darn, I wanted to read that/reread that." (And of those I've read, one is part of a longer series which I gave up on after a couple of stories, because while the original was quite good, it ended up getting rather self-indulgent, and involving a second mpreg pregnancy with no excuse, so far as I can see, other than the writer liking mpreg and wanting to write it again. Bored now.)

My only objection is to making blanket statements about mpreg as a trope, because while I don't like it, and the rest of the story has to be pretty damn great to make up for the mpreg that I really don't like, I have seen it handled well, and I think it's a good example of something that (while it doesn't float my personal boat) is good or bad depending how it's done. As with (almost?) all tropes, in and of itself it's fairly neutral, if a bit weird and (for a lot of people) distasteful. How it's handled can make the difference between "OMG MY EYES GET ME THE BRAIN BLEACH" and "Huh. That wasn't a bad read." The stories that fall into the second category are out there, even if they're a minority (IME), and I don't like to see them dismissed as dross purely because of the trope they use.

There's a big difference between "I don't like mpreg and choose not to read it" (which is true of me 99% of the time, full disclosure) or "Mpreg is inherently problematic (also true, IMO) and I don't like it," even "Mpreg is so often done badly that I avoid it and don't feel I am missing out," or merely "Mpreg grosses me out, period" all of which IMO are entirely valid and fair and I have absolutely no argument with, and "Mpreg is universally and inherently a pile of crap," which, IME (and even as someone who dislikes the trope), is not. I hope that makes my position clear!

Like I say, I have ZERO issues with people having tropes they dislike/won't read, and there are undoubtedly tropes that are handled poorly more often than not, and mpreg might even be near the front of that particular line. I just think it's unfair and unnecessary to make the jump from "thing I dislike" to "thing that is inherently bad" with no other justification. Mpreg is weird, but it's not romanticising paedophilia or bestiality, ya feel me? (The one thing it does share with those is consent issues, and that is one thing that is too often glossed over but I have seen handled well, and actually tackling that in some way is more or less a prerequisite for me thinking it's been done well.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:30 pm 
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You bring up some good points, Sarah.

And it reminded me. I have casually read an "mpreg" fic or two or more, can't remember. And despite what I said up top, they were stories that actually were OK, and even enjoyable.

I still don't get the point, but they weren't inherently bad fic. So yeah, great point. I'm sure other people don't get the point of slash or excessively beating up on the characters. 8-)

I know we all have our "thing" as far as what we like to write and read. I do try to keep an open mind while browsing, and I have to say -- quite honestly -- excellent writing usually always keeps me reading, no matter the plot.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:17 am 
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K9Lasko wrote:
I have to say -- quite honestly -- excellent writing usually always keeps me reading, no matter the plot.

This. So much, this.

And honestly, without excellent writing, I wouldn't read slash, never mind write it. Having only ever come across awful stuff, even with recommendations/authors I knew to be good at other kinds of stories, I always trod carefully. If it hadn't been that some of the stories I found then were excellent, I never would've discovered that actually I do like slash when it's done well. Now? Not only do I read it, but I have 18 stories posted which have some slash content (from pre-slash through to mildly smutty), and a whole heap more WIPs/waiting to be posted stories (from pre-slash through to whoa - I really cannot keep Cal and Gibbs down...).

(Conservative estimate: upwards of 30 finished stories with MM content of some kind in the Lie to NCIS series alone :rofl: and that is just MM (not FF) stories in one 'verse :rofl: So blame/thank the writers here plus some on AO3 (notably syynthetical and catwalksalone) for making me go "Oh! Now I get it!")

I used to make a lot more snap judgements, these days I try really hard not to, and honestly take a lot of pleasure in finding myself proven wrong here and there =D There are still things I mostly avoid (and mpreg is one of them), but I try not to assume that what I don't like is inherently poor writing.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:01 am 
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They say fact is stranger than fiction and I could not post this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ghter.html

A man who was born a woman has carried and given birth to his own daughter, after his wife was unable to fall pregnant.

not what you are talking about as such but someone somewhere has probably written the story

but this freaked me

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2560070/b ... -facebook/

'I'M FOUR MONTHS PREGNANT' British man, 20, will be the first to give BIRTH thanks to sperm donor he found on Facebook
Hayden Cross plans to have baby before returning to complete the transition process, which will remove his breasts and ovaries

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:59 pm 
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flootzavut wrote:
K9Lasko wrote:
I have to say -- quite honestly -- excellent writing usually always keeps me reading, no matter the plot.

This. So much, this.

And honestly, without excellent writing, I wouldn't read slash, never mind write it. Having only ever come across awful stuff, even with recommendations/authors I knew to be good at other kinds of stories, I always trod carefully. If it hadn't been that some of the stories I found then were excellent, I never would've discovered that actually I do like slash when it's done well. Now? Not only do I read it, but I have 18 stories posted which have some slash content (from pre-slash through to mildly smutty), and a whole heap more WIPs/waiting to be posted stories (from pre-slash through to whoa - I really cannot keep Cal and Gibbs down...).

(Conservative estimate: upwards of 30 finished stories with MM content of some kind in the Lie to NCIS series alone :rofl: and that is just MM (not FF) stories in one 'verse :rofl: So blame/thank the writers here plus some on AO3 (notably syynthetical and catwalksalone) for making me go "Oh! Now I get it!")

I used to make a lot more snap judgements, these days I try really hard not to, and honestly take a lot of pleasure in finding myself proven wrong here and there =D There are still things I mostly avoid (and mpreg is one of them), but I try not to assume that what I don't like is inherently poor writing.

I'm currently spoiled by the Sherlock fandom, which has produced a stellar tonne of above average decent John/Sherlock fic. Now, some fic is BAD BAD BAD, as is the usual for fandom, but some is fucking excellent canon-worthy shit that made me go "DAMN why aren't you employed by these people." But you know, some of the fic that isn't even labeled John/Sherlock is my favorite John/Sherlock. Go figure that one out. Just the beauty of that particular relationship, I guess. In my brain at least.

/random.

But yeah, the Tony/Gibbs segment has put out some excellent slash. And Tony/McGee, too. Brilliant.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Sorry, I beg to disagree. Not everything is relative. There is good and bad and absolute right and wrong. Sometimes things are the lesser of two evils and we must do things like kill our enemies, but killing humans is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the reason or justification. So much of our education tells us to accept things or to tolerate things we cannot make ourselves accept. In general, I like to be tolerant, but I (for one example) am not gonna see the point of view of/make excuses for any rapist, not even if he/she was horribly abused. Their abuse is an explanation, but never an excuse.

bad writing is always bad.
singing off key is always bad singing
mpreg is always bad.

I am not gonna buy into political correctness and say 'it isn't my cuppa, but it's not necessarily worthless'. Some things are inherently bad.

All my previous attempts to read stories with Mpreg have proven to me that mpreg is an awful idea, and its presence signals 'badfic'. Every time. No matter how promising the start. There's NO reason for ruining a good story with mpreg.

I won't read a story with (for example) lovingly described rape and I won't read Mpreg.

"You' are entitled to YOUR opinion that 'it may be offensive, but it can't be called useless.'
MY opinion is that there are idiotic and gross things out there and Mpreg is one of them.

Some things are worthless. That's why we throw trash out.

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Just for the record: I don't think a transgender person having a child is Mpreg.

They are making the best of a complicated situation. I would read a fiction about a trans person who identified as male, carrying a baby or one who identified as female, inseminating someone to have a biological offspring.

If a trans person (like most cis people) wants to have a biological child, the only way for a trans person to be fertile is to somehow use the anatomy they were born with... and if that means bearing a child, so be it!

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 am 
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Just for the record: I don't think a transgender person having a child is Mpreg.


I know I was just joining in the conversation, and thinking what if? I apologise for jumping in.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Chelsea: I think Tibbs in particular, even though it's not a relationship I get excited about, has put out some of the best fanfic in NCIS, and McNozzo also has some excellent stuff. I tend to prefer Johnlock when it's written as friends, because frankly with those two, you can read in a relationship easily assuming they're remotely in character, because they are basically married :lol2: whereas I find that a lot that are overtly romantic seem to veer out of character and/or get unrealistically romantic and/or just sloppily written.

(I do think that some of the best Sherlock fanfic out there outwrites some of the canon by a degree which should embarrass Mofftiss et al.)

Well then we will have to disagree, Blue, because frankly, I think that's nonsense. I've read mpreg that's good. That's not me being "PC", that's simply me stating that in my experience, even a trope I highly dislike, handled well, can work and can produce a good story. Which is exactly the reason I don't buy into the "Trope X is inherently bad" notion and think it's a fallacy almost the time. (I hesitate to say "all the time" for much the same reasons; I'm not a walking encyclopaedia of tropes.)

Just because I don't like something doesn't make it bad. Poor writing, poor characterisation, a failure to actually think through the implications is what (very, very often indeed) makes mpreg bad, and that is also true of my very favourite tropes when written poorly. (Though most of my favourite tropes are easier not to screw up.) Mpreg is inherently problematic, absolutely, which in my experience makes it more prone to issues than, say, your bog standard "unresolved sexual tension" plot. (It's also somewhat fandom dependent; it's hardly coincidental that mpreg tends to be more popular and more successful in fantasy or sci-fi fandoms than in real world cop shows.)

Like I say, I'm not being "politically correct", and I find that implication kinda laughable, tbh; mpreg is one of my least favourite tropes, I've read maybe half a dozen mpreg stories as complete stories (i.e. the ones that, to my surprise, didn't have me reaching for the back button; the proportion of 'those I've read' from 'those I've started' is not flattering to mpreg as a trope), and it's something I typically go out of my way to avoid, BUT... I've read it handled well and thoughtfully and seen it produce some good stories, so I simply can't agree that it's somehow inherently bad. Honestly, I just think that's self-evident nonsense. Mpreg is waaayyyy more often handled poorly than, say, "undercover as a couple," and there's a hell of a lot of really awful mpreg out there. I've started more than a few stories myself (because I am nosy and also apparently a glutton for punishment, I regularly dip my toe into stuff that I don't actively like to see if someone can change my mind) that have made me back out rapidly going "MY EYES, MY EYES," and I doubt mpreg is ever going to be something I actively go looking for. It is hard to do well, and relatively few people manage it, but that just isn't the same as it being inherently bad and impossible to handle well.

(Comparing it to "lovingly described rape" is not a good comparison, either. Bad mpreg, that doesn't think through the implications/does revolting things with innards? Sure. But you're not comparing like with like. That's the difference between a story that describes rape as a horrific thing, shows why it's horrific, doesn't get gratuitous and doesn't make light of it versus a story that presents rape for the purposes of titillation, and there are a dozen shades of grey in between. Similarly it's the difference between the average run of the mill "Good God what is this person smoking? Get it away from me!" mpreg and those who actually consider the implications and write an interesting, thoughtful story that doesn't romanticise the situation or get gross. Edited to add: Honestly, I find bringing rape, abuse and murder into this discussion much more gross than mpreg.)

And like I said before, if you hate mpreg that much and never even want to give it a try, I have absolutely no problem with that and will in fact staunchly defend your right to despise it, never read it, never ever give another mpreg story a chance in your life, and say you hate with the fiery passion of a thousand suns it when the subject comes up if you feel so moved. Life is far too short to read stuff you don't want to read (unless you are, like me, incurably nosy).

I rarely read McGibbs, because 95% of the time I find it wildly and laughably out of character and unbelievable, and the other 5% of the time I find it utterly cringemaking (if the writer makes it believable, I actually find it worse, it just hits me totally wrong), and there are a number of other pairings/tropes I similarly hate and avoid like the plague (including mpreg at least 99% of the time). Doesn't make McGibbs inherently awful. I got zero problem with people detesting tropes and pairings I like, never mind those I don't.

I just won't sit back and nod if you say that something is inherently bad when my experience says different :confusion-shrug:

I'm not gonna argue any more - like I've said, I really don't like mpreg, it forms only the tiniest proportion imaginable of stories I have read. I have literally written almost as many stories for Tibbs (a pairing I don't, in any real sense, ship) as I have actually finished reading in mpreg (and that's using my largest estimate with regards to mpreg: if I try and remember individual stories, I'm stuck around 3-4, and I don't know if that's a memory fail or that I have overestimated), so the energy I'm willing to spend defending it is slender, and has already frankly been used up. I dare say someone who actively likes it could defend it well and come up with a bunch of reasons and examples, but that's not me. All I am saying is when my experience tells me that, on rare occasions when the stars align and the writer knows their stuff, mpreg can work? Then my dislike of it as a trope doesn't somehow render it irredeemable.

That's all I've said all along, and frankly you're not gonna change my mind by continually insisting it is irredeemable just because you believe it, so honestly, I don't see much point in saying anything else here :confusion-shrug:

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Last edited by flootzavut on Wed May 17, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:16 pm 
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DeepBlueJoy wrote:
Sorry, I beg to disagree. Not everything is relative. There is good and bad and absolute right and wrong. Sometimes things are the lesser of two evils and we must do things like kill our enemies, but killing humans is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the reason or justification. So much of our education tells us to accept things or to tolerate things we cannot make ourselves accept. In general, I like to be tolerant, but I (for one example) am not gonna see the point of view of/make excuses for any rapist, not even if he/she was horribly abused. Their abuse is an explanation, but never an excuse.

bad writing is always bad.
singing off key is always bad singing
mpreg is always bad.

I am not gonna buy into political correctness and say 'it isn't my cuppa, but it's not necessarily worthless'. Some things are inherently bad.

All my previous attempts to read stories with Mpreg have proven to me that mpreg is an awful idea, and its presence signals 'badfic'. Every time. No matter how promising the start. There's NO reason for ruining a good story with mpreg.

I won't read a story with (for example) lovingly described rape and I won't read Mpreg.

"You' are entitled to YOUR opinion that 'it may be offensive, but it can't be called useless.'
MY opinion is that there are idiotic and gross things out there and Mpreg is one of them.

Some things are worthless. That's why we throw trash out.

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Just for the record: I don't think a transgender person having a child is Mpreg.

They are making the best of a complicated situation. I would read a fiction about a trans person who identified as male, carrying a baby or one who identified as female, inseminating someone to have a biological offspring.

If a trans person (like most cis people) wants to have a biological child, the only way for a trans person to be fertile is to somehow use the anatomy they were born with... and if that means bearing a child, so be it!


Hmm. Blue, since I know you write slash, I'm rather disturbed by your attitude since it's not really any different from people saying all slash writing is 'bad fic.' People can write what they want to write and they can read what they want to read. We have the choice to not read something we don't like.

For example, there are people here who don't like slash, don't want anything to do with it but quietly choose not to read it instead of being dismissive of those of us who do write and read it. I respect those people and in return, I choose to be respectful as well. Mpreg is really no different in that respect. Do I wish people didn't dismiss slash as 'bad fic'? Of course. I'm just realistic enough to know I can't change it.

And Patsy, you have nothing to apologize for. I can fully understand why the situation you posted about made you think of this, especially since there are some people who may be biologically male or female but feel like the other gender on the inside. The psychology of that is beyond the scope of this thread (and not a discussion I would particularly want in this thread) but I understand why it reminded you of it and why you posted about it. It's not mpreg per se, but I could see how the connection between the two was made.

I really regret making this thread now. I only wanted to understand what drew people to this trope because I was curious about it. I really didn't expect such hostility. It seems a lot of people don't like mpreg for a variety of reasons; that much is clear, but the dead horse has been beaten enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:31 am 
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I apologize if I came off as hostile. I wasn't angry, though I was irritated. There's no tone of voice on the internet. Something I need to remember. Truth is? I felt preached at. When did having an opinion that is different become unacceptable?

About most things I'm relative. I'm a person who has been accused of being too open minded. I am sorry that thinking something is stupid and has no redeeming value is not an acceptable opinion. My opinion isn't going to change, but I love all you guys and I don't want to lose you guys as friends and I respect your desire to be open minded about this or even to read MPREG.

I need you to respect that I have no use for it. I'm sorry if that bothers you or seems like a bad thing. It's not intolerance to have a strong opinion and it's not 'wrong' to have a nonconforming opinion.

I really didn't want to cause hurt or upset. So now I am stepping out of this conversation completely. Done. Anyone want to talk about it, PM me. I must say I will think 3 times about expressing any opinion that is significantly non-conforming.

I haven't abused anyone. I haven't called anyone names. I don't think anyone is stupid. I don't hate anyone. In fact I like most of you rather a lot and the rest of you at least a little bit.

I simply completely disagree with what i think of is "tolerance for tolerance sake" in spite of the fact that ALL of us (in this tread) without exception think MPREG doesn't work. Our opinions aren't actually that far apart.

the difference between me and you is that after experience has taught me it doesn't work, I'm not leaving any opening for it to be redeemed for me, b/c it represents both a failure of the imagination and a gross thing. I can't say 'garbage may have a use, so I will store it in my basement until i find time to go through it and find the treasure. The emperor has no clothing. The garbage is rotting. I am a practical person. Evidence based. The preponderance of evidence is that this thing has no value.

If a man hit me once, I might forgive him. If he hit me twice, I'd leave and I would not take his calls. He would not be welcome in my space. MPREG is a bad lover. I don't have and will never gain have any use for him.

Someone else might. That's their prerogative. I don't have a problem with that. But don't come telling me to give him one more chance. I won't.

I'm not a conformer, though on the whole I am very moderate in my beliefs and in most things believe in moderation.

I'm VERY open minded, extremely liberal and willing to accept many things. But i have religious friends with absolute views about some things and I respect their life choices even if i no longer follow them (I grew up pentecostal).

I don't see what the big deal is about finding no value in something, particularly if it doesn't affect anyone's life b/c it's IMPOSSIBLE. I'm not discriminating against a person or group of people. I'm not insulting anyone here. I'm simply saying what I think. POLITELY and respectfully.

I won't ever accept being 'corrected' for having a valid difference of opinion.

My opinion is not wrong or right, it's just an opinion. about something FICTIONAL. By their nature, they are subjective.

If someone wants to believe there could be an exception to the MPREG badfic trend, that's their business. Truth is, I've allowed myself to read such stories in the past, and I came to my conclusions by EXPERIENCE. If your experience (and therefore your opinion) is different, that's fine.

You need to know something: I'm married to a man whose political views are the OPPOSITE of mine in many things -- but we have lived for more than 2 decades without hating on each other about it. His opinion is his opinion and mine is mine. He doesn't have to like my views and I don't have to like his. I don't even have to find the people he votes for acceptable...
But i do find him decent, honorable and loving.

And so I accept that particular flaw (yes, i consider it a major flaw, and I'm sure he feels the same way about my politics) because he's a decent and good human being.

In the case of the badfic that is MPREG, I don't consider the opposite opinion a flaw, just a difference, because it isn't a sign of bad thought processes, just a sign that there are different views. In terms of party, in general, I don't consider support of the other party a flaw either. I think it's necessary to have at least two different ways of thinking in public policy, because if either side got all it wanted, it would be very extreme, and detrimental to the country.

If all of us agreed, there would be no reason for discussion or argument... or thinking about things from different viewpoints.

I don't like bad writing and i consider MPREG bad writing. Few people here would probably disagree with me about bad writing being bad. I won't apologize for considering incompetent stories incompetently told of no value.

And no, that doesn't mean I won't listen to content from uneducated people who have something to say.

Anyway, I wish you all fun in your continued discussion. I am not gonna participate in it further. If i have broken any site rules, let me know. I wish you all well.

Bye.

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 Post subject: Re: Mpreg in fan fiction
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:03 am 
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Hey folks, I don't think it was anyone's intention to cause hurt feelings or so forth in this thread. While it seems the majority of the thread people felt that mpreg was not their thing and a minority did not mind it.

This was a decent discussion thread however we always do need to remember everyone's opinions differ and sometimes we cannot come to an agreement on certain subjects.At the end of the day, everyone has their own likes and dislikes with fanfiction and original writing in general. I do thank you all for at least being civil and so forth through the discussion.

Now my random opinion:

I do feel mpreg stories and media are a bit out there in terms of there being a general acceptance among readers/viewers. Then again, I'm not a big reader in "far out there ideas."

I find that if someone enjoys writing it and as stated earlier in the thread, if it is their "kink' so to speak then by all means write it. It does seem a bit more believable in sci-fi/fantasy fandoms (Harry Potter, Supernatural, Star Wars, etc...) more than crime genre shows such as NCIS or Criminal Minds.

Most often I think that the writers for mpreg fanfiction write it for the audience that they know will read it and that is the audience they are trying to reach with the story, not the general readers. I say that because more often then not when I did write fanfiction, I wrote crossovers to appeal for the small audience I had for Sailor Moon crossovers.

That was what I liked and it worked (how ever limited successfully). Perhaps some of the mpreg writers feel the same or they just see the characters in a different light than the majority. I don't know.

As for Ranma 1/2, Rumiko Takahashi has always had a thing for addressing sexual/racial/etc issues in her works and was aware of what implications she did when writing and drawing Ranma 1/2. I think she knew there was a possibility for readers for her manga in Japan who could possibly want mpreg readers. She has always seemed to appeal to various readers in her works. Otherwise, she would not be so successful as a manga/comic artist and storyteller. If some here on the forums were to view some of her other works too, they would gain an understanding about her.

Then again, maybe cultural (west/eastern) differences would also help explain people's thing for such things as this.

My only wish is to warn when someone decides too...
Spoiler:
make a warning for an Obi-Wan Kenobi centered fanfiction and suddenly have been giving birth to evil baby Darth Vader.

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